COLREGS - vessel under oars

[weavis]

Given the differences of opinion and lack of knowledge of the actual rules, I am grateful that the levels of incidents are as low as they are.

I suspect this might be due to last second heaving on the wheel or tiller to rectify the situation..

[Pete7]

And that a large number travel at 5 knots rather than motorway speeds giving people time and if there is a crunch, well its a bit of gel coat or a new pink spinnaker if you sail in the Solent

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

This is my understanding of the term "burdened " as well .After assessing the situation you then declare which vessel is burdened .

Who "declares"? How is this supposed to work? What if the other vessel has a different opinion? Or, God forbid, is following the actual Rules?

Again, the question -- where do these "rules" come from? The actual legal Rules don't apply?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Calif.Ted

I used to teach people to drive fire engines and taught only ONE rule "Don't hit anything and don't let anything hit you".

Do you mean to say that red lights and green lights and stop signs are irrelevant, and there is no need to pay any attention to them? And that it doesn't matter what side of the road you drive on? Just follow one "rule" and forget about the rest of it?

This is actually very analogous to what we're talking about.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Do you mean to say that red lights and green lights and stop signs are irrelevant, and there is no need to pay any attention to them? And that it doesn't matter what side of the road you drive on?

Actually Dock, that's pretty much true for a fire truck responding to a call (with lights and sound on). They will stay on their side of the road when they can, but will go to the other/'wrong' side if/when necessary to get around traffic, and they do go thru red lights. (at least in the US).

But this is an explicit part of the road driving 'colregs' - everyone must yield right of way to an emergency vehicle running lights and sounds. It is not ignoring the rule set. “Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle making use of audible and visual signals … or of a police vehicle properly and lawfully making use of an audible signal only, the driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right-of-way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to, the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway clear of any intersection and shall stop and remain in such position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed …”

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Actually Dock, that's pretty much true for a fire truck responding to a call (with lights and sound on). They will stay on their side of the road when they can, but will go to the other/'wrong' side if/when necessary to get around traffic, and they do go thru red lights. (at least in the US).

as an amusing note . . . . Q. Who has to yield right of way at an intersection, a fire truck with lights and siren, an ambulance with lights and siren, a police vehicle with lights and siren, the Presidential motorcade, or a post office truck? A. Everyone has to yield right-of-way to the postal truck (It's unconstitutional to impede a postal carrier.)

Point well taken!

All the more reason, though -- not to drive our boats according to the same principles by which people drive fire trucks!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Actually Dock, that's pretty much true for a fire truck responding to a call (with lights and sound on). They will stay on their side of the road when they can, but will go to the other/'wrong' side if/when necessary to get around traffic, and they do go thru red lights. (at least in the US).

But this is an explicit part of the road driving 'colregs' - everyone must yield right of way to an emergency vehicle running lights and sounds. It is not ignoring the rule set. “Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle making use of audible and visual signals … or of a police vehicle properly and lawfully making use of an audible signal only, the driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right-of-way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to, the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway clear of any intersection and shall stop and remain in such position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed …”

Do the fire engine drivers just obey "only that one rule" when returning from the callout?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Confrontation? No one is talking about a confrontation

The question is not "right or wrong" -- the question is -- what is the best thing to do, to safely resolve a risk of collision situation. Are you sure that an immediate, panicky, "GET OUT OF THE WAY!" maneuver, is always the best thing to do? Or ever?

No panicky moves but taking action long before to avoid a confrontation is exactly what the colregs recommends and technically requires. The vast majority of the time early action to avoid big ships or other commercial operations is far better than quibbling over who has ROW (or more technically who is stand on). Even for other pleasure craft it if it doesn't create other problems it's a good approach. For example: where a deep channel runs down a bay, we would often be fully within our rights to run right down the middle until confronted with another vessel. Instead, if the depths are conducive, we often run parallel just outside the buoys. It's not panicky, it's just means we can focus most of our attention on the small vessels that may cross our path.

Yes, you need to know the colregs and follow them but the law of tonnage is a good starting point and will keep you in good position most of the time but yes sometimes you have to more formally apply the colregs.

The challenging part is how close is too close and how early is early enough. If you are the stand on vessel and a big power cruiser is going to swamp you, how close before you have to stay on course and just take the wake vs bearing off to get away from the wake? At 5 miles, 2 miles, 1 mile, 1/4 mile 100yds, etc... This is a much more subjective rule that depends on the respective speed, heading, channel width and other issues. Just staying clear well ahead of time eliminates this issue.

Applying the rule of tonnage or similar rules does not mean that you don't understand and utilize the colregs. Really it's just a shorthand way of saying you need to take early action and if it appears the other boat isn't going to follow the rules, you have to do something to try and avoid the collision.

I'm not sure I can say I've seen any boat apply the rule of tonnage and make the situation worse. The ones making the erratic maneuvers are generally not following any rules.

[Snore]

I do not want to call any one poster out. But...

To all those who call themselves "instructors" and then teach thier version of the rules --- SHAME ON YOU! As instructors we have the obligation to teach the right way to do things versus our "short version". An ongoing part of my classes, while off the dock, is asking the students who is "stand on" for every crossing I can see. If they can sail the hell out of a boat, but don't know the basic rules, I have failed. To say someone is certified by ASA or some other organization and does not know the rules is (to be CF polite) very, very, very bad" ��

COLREGS is applicable seaward of the COLREGS line and, as I learned them, in waters navigable by ocean going vessels. To simply tell a student about the rule of tonnage in a channel is wrong. A 50' sailboat can have a deep fixed keel, and if she shows the right day shapes can be CBD.

Ok rant over.... feel free to criticize

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

No panicky moves but taking action long before to avoid a confrontation is exactly what the colregs recommends and technically requires. The vast majority of the time early action to avoid big ships or other commercial operations is far better than quibbling over who has ROW (or more technically who is stand on). Even for other pleasure craft it if it doesn't create other problems it's a good approach. For example: where a deep channel runs down a bay, we would often be fully within our rights to run right down the middle until confronted with another vessel. Instead, if the depths are conducive, we often run parallel just outside the buoys. It's not panicky, it's just means we can focus most of our attention on the small vessels that may cross our path.

Yes, you need to know the colregs and follow them but the law of tonnage is a good starting point and will keep you in good position most of the time but yes sometimes you have to more formally apply the colregs.

The challenging part is how close is too close and how early is early enough. If you are the stand on vessel and a big power cruiser is going to swamp you, how close before you have to stay on course and just take the wake vs bearing off to get away from the wake? At 5 miles, 2 miles, 1 mile, 1/4 mile 100yds, etc... This is a much more subjective rule that depends on the respective speed, heading, channel width and other issues. Just staying clear well ahead of time eliminates this issue.

Applying the rule of tonnage or similar rules does not mean that you don't understand and utilize the colregs. Really it's just a shorthand way of saying you need to take early action and if it appears the other boat isn't going to follow the rules, you have to do something to try and avoid the collision.

I'm not sure I can say I've seen any boat apply the rule of tonnage and make the situation worse. The ones making the erratic maneuvers are generally not following any rules.

I have tried to reconcile the so-called "Law of Gross Tonnage" with the actual Rules, and I do agree, and have written so, that taking early action, early enough to be allowed under the actual Rules, to avoid a risk of collision situation from ever arising with a large commercial vessel, is excellent policy. This is especially important in harbors and bays and approaches -- where there may not be enough searoom for normal collision avoidance procedure, and where you should be able to determine where the ship is going to be. Whether or not you are under a specific obligation to do this under Rule 9.

But what I have a problem with is when people advise others that they don't need to know anything about the Rules at all -- that the so-called Law of Gross Tonnage, or some made-up "Right of Way Pyramids" or such carp is all you need. So it's not "following" the Law of Gross Tonnage which is dangerous -- at least, following it when it doesn't conflict with the real Rules -- it's taking it as a substitute for the real Rules which is dangerous. It's being unaware of your other obligations and thinking you are free to maneuver willy nilly, whenever you want -- you are not. In my experience a quite large percentage of sailors suffer from these misunderstandings, which are perpetuated by these ideas.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snore

I do not want to call any one poster out. But...

To all those who call themselves "instructors" and then teach thier version of the rules --- SHAME ON YOU! As instructors we have the obligation to teach the right way to do things versus our "short version". An ongoing part of my classes, while off the dock, is asking the students who is "stand on" for every crossing I can see. If they can sail the hell out of a boat, but don't know the basic rules, I have failed. To say someone is certified by ASA or some other organization and does not know the rules is (to be CF polite) very, very, very bad" ��

COLREGS is applicable seaward of the COLREGS line and, as I learned them, in waters navigable by ocean going vessels. To simply tell a student about the rule of tonnage in a channel is wrong. A 50' sailboat can have a deep fixed keel, and if she shows the right day shapes can be CBD.

Ok rant over.... feel free to criticize

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I don't think you'd be able to use the signal if you had it - the US Inland rules don't recognize "CBD".

Lodesman, this is actually quite interesting - I freely admit that I am not conversant with the US inland regs - unfortunately (my bad)

The inland rules do not recognize CBD - Care to elaborate? It would seem to me that there are a number of instances where I can see a vessel could easily be CBD in inland waters - what should such a vessel fly if not CBD?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have tried to reconcile the so-called "Law of Gross Tonnage" with the actual Rules, and I do agree, and have written so, that taking early action, early enough to be allowed under the actual Rules, to avoid a risk of collision situation from ever arising with a large commercial vessel, is excellent policy. This is especially important in harbors and bays and approaches -- where there may not be enough searoom for normal collision avoidance procedure, and where you should be able to determine where the ship is going to be. Whether or not you are under a specific obligation to do this under Rule 9.

But what I have a problem with is when people advise others that they don't need to know anything about the Rules at all -- that the so-called Law of Gross Tonnage, or some made-up "Right of Way Pyramids" or such carp is all you need. So it's not "following" the Law of Gross Tonnage which is dangerous -- at least, following it when it doesn't conflict with the real Rules -- it's taking it as a substitute for the real Rules which is dangerous. It's being unaware of your other obligations and thinking you are free to maneuver willy nilly, whenever you want -- you are not. In my experience a quite large percentage of sailors suffer from these misunderstandings, which are perpetuated by these ideas.

I don't recall anyone saying that people don't need to know the colregs just that the law of tonnage covers most of it. Particularly if you don't have time to teach the full rules, it's going to cover the vast majority of situations.

I would argue 99% of the problems are those who don't know the colregs or the law of tonnage. They are just idiots with no idea what they are doing in any way, shape or form.

[gamayun]

I love these discussions and have come to greatly appreciate the wisdom of (and reason for) stand on/give way of the Colregs. As to the original question about vessels under oars, I have to motor out of the Port of Oakland's very narrow and busy estuary. I'm usually not sailing to get out but it is a nice down wind run on the return. I tell my crew that kayaks are 10 points and SUPs are 15, and we don't deviate our course, but before we hit anyone, we often see the rowers coming to some situational awareness and will usually organize themselves a little closer to shore. The expert ones will catch up with us and ride our wakes. I slow way down for the sculls because they are super tippy and they stay in the middle of the channel because of the boomerang effect of the wake off the shoreline. I used to row on a whale boat and know exactly how well they can handle sea state, but those rowers are also tough bad asses so best to give them a wide berth anyway To throw a new issue into the mix, someone asked recently about the requirement to sound a horn in fog. How many of you recreational sailing vessels do this? My guess is that the answer is it probaby depends on the circumstances as well as the equipment you might have for such circumstances, but if there's a collision, you can bet an attorney will ask if you were properly sounding a signal.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Lodesman, this is actually quite interesting - I freely admit that I am not conversant with the US inland regs - unfortunately (my bad)

The inland rules do not recognize CBD - Care to elaborate? It would seem to me that there are a number of instances where I can see a vessel could easily be CBD in inland waters - what should such a vessel fly if not CBD?

Carstenb, if I remember correctly, the whole concept of 'constrained by draft' and all the words related to it are removed from the US inland rules. It simply does not exist as a concept/situation in those rules.

Narrow Channel, TSS and Restricted in Ability to Maneuver do exist in inland.

Draft (relative to available water depth) is a factor in 'safe speed' in the inland rules.