COLREGS - vessel under oars

[Exile]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I don't recall anyone saying that people don't need to know the colregs just that the law of tonnage covers most of it. Particularly if you don't have time to teach the full rules, it's going to cover the vast majority of situations.

I would argue 99% of the problems are those who don't know the colregs or the law of tonnage. They are just idiots with no idea what they are doing in any way, shape or form.

Not idiots necessarily, just some who are not that conversant with the Rules or how they actually apply, and further confused by such myths as the "law of tonnage" perhaps. As you state, there's not necessarily any conflict with the Rules by getting out of the way early, but the problem arises over misunderstandings over what is "early." For us "early" is often "late" for a large commercial ship who has already long seen us, determined the potential for collision, and already maneuvered -- or set up its plan to maneuver -- as the give way vessel.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but think that this so-called "law of tonnage" we so often hear only adds to the confusion. And it's not "quibbling" between vessels trying to determine who might be stand on or give way, but rather communicating intentions in conformance with the Rules that hopefully contributes to predictability. If this doesn't work and only creates more confusion, then the Rules allow and in fact require alternative action to avoid collision. All the Rules do is establish an orderly, safe & predictable regimen for vessels to pass one another w/o incident, but one which is in fact legally required and not optional.

I don't think we fundamentally disagree on these basic concepts, but your comments do suggest a "right of way" mindset that may add to some peoples' confusion & misunderstanding.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Lodesman, this is actually quite interesting - I freely admit that I am not conversant with the US inland regs - unfortunately (my bad)



The inland rules do not recognize CBD - Care to elaborate? It would seem to me that there are a number of instances where I can see a vessel could easily be CBD in inland waters - what should such a vessel fly if not CBD?

The statement that the inland rules does not recognize CBD is correct. The logic being any vessel in a river is CBD.

However, as I learned COLREGS, COLREGS extends to all water navigated by ocean vessels- with the exception of the Mississippi and Western Rivers. In those rivers and the Great Lakes, Inland Rules apply. Those rules state a vessel under 20 meters shall not impede a larger vessel.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I the law of tonnage covers most of it. Particularly if you don't have time to teach the full rules, it's going to cover the vast majority of situations.

Could you share the legal reference or foundation of "the law of tonnage"?

Regarding time (insert sarcastic quip here) I can teach the basic ColRegs in about 45 minutes and then drill it around the rest of the lessons while underway. All that in a 101 class, reinforced in a 103 class.

[sestina]

Talking to my chum who is a keen yachtsman as well as being a retired ship's master and a pilot for the Thames Estuary about this question of 'might is right'. He said, 'Do what the COLREGS tell you to do'. That is what the bridge team are expecting. If you want to do something different ie: pass starboard to starboard, or have concerns then get on the VHF.

I've followed his advice and I sail in probably the busiest area in the world, the southern North Sea. Never had any difficulty.

The moral being don't try and reinvent the wheel.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sestina

Talking to my chum who is a keen yachtsman as well as being a retired ship's master and a pilot for the Thames Estuary about this question of 'might is right'. He said, 'Do what the COLREGS tell you to do'. That is what the bridge team are expecting. If you want to do something different ie: pass starboard to starboard, or have concerns then get on the VHF.

I've followed his advice and I sail in probably the busiest area in the world, the southern North Sea. Never had any difficulty.

The moral being don't try and reinvent the wheel.

Ask just about any professional mariner, and you will get the exact same answer -- Follow the Rules.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

. . . . All the Rules do is establish an orderly, safe & predictable regimen for vessels to pass one another w/o incident, but one which is in fact legally required and not optional.. .

Exactly!


What is wrong with the "Law of Tonnage"?

As I've said -- it's fine as long as it's followed only when it's PERMITTED by the actual, non-optional, legally binding Rules.

But very often -- and we've heard it over and over in these threads recently --

* People do not understand that the Rules require a certain order of maneuvering.

* People think that being the stand-on vessel just means you have some kind of "right", which they are free to give up.

* People don't have any idea of the distances and decision points when dealing with commercial traffic.


And dumbing collision avoidance down to some kind of "Law of Tonnage" or "Right of Way Pyramid" perpetuates all these misconceptions.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Carstenb, if I remember correctly, the whole concept of 'constrained by draft' and all the words related to it are removed from the US inland rules. It simply does not exist as a concept/situation in those rules.

Narrow Channel, TSS and Restricted in Ability to Maneuver do exist in inland.

Draft (relative to available water depth) is a factor in 'safe speed' in the inland rules.

Evans - thank you

unless I'm mistaken (could very well be) RAM is only used for vessels with a specific purpose - dredging etc. So this cannot be used by a vessel with a deep draft. Narrow channel is fine - but how does one know if the vessel coming at you has a deep draft and therefore is restricted by the narrow channel?

Practical example - we're sailing the Intracoastal with a 7.5 foot draft. It can be done, although it does require being very mindful of the tides - even so- there are stretches where the depth is only 7-7.5 or 8 feet.

We have virtually no maneuvering room on those stretches and we certainly do feel "constrained by draft". For us this is a narrow channel - but for all the motorboats blasting by us - they don't realize this.

What should we fly? (assuming the motorboaters would recognize the signal -- which might be doubtful in many instances)

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by gamayun

I love these discussions and have come to greatly appreciate the wisdom of (and reason for) stand on/give way of the Colregs. As to the original question about vessels under oars, I have to motor out of the Port of Oakland's very narrow and busy estuary. I'm usually not sailing to get out but it is a nice down wind run on the return. I tell my crew that kayaks are 10 points and SUPs are 15, and we don't deviate our course, but before we hit anyone, we often see the rowers coming to some situational awareness and will usually organize themselves a little closer to shore. The expert ones will catch up with us and ride our wakes. I slow way down for the sculls because they are super tippy and they stay in the middle of the channel because of the boomerang effect of the wake off the shoreline. I used to row on a whale boat and know exactly how well they can handle sea state, but those rowers are also tough bad asses so best to give them a wide berth anyway To throw a new issue into the mix, someone asked recently about the requirement to sound a horn in fog. How many of you recreational sailing vessels do this? My guess is that the answer is it probaby depends on the circumstances as well as the equipment you might have for such circumstances, but if there's a collision, you can bet an attorney will ask if you were properly sounding a signal.

We do have a fog horn on board (old brass one requiring lung power) and do use it when we are in tight spaces with fog and other traffic - last time I blew was in NYC harbour

[Snore]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Evans - thank you



unless I'm mistaken (could very well be) RAM is only used for vessels with a specific purpose - dredging etc. So this cannot be used by a vessel with a deep draft. Narrow channel is fine - but how does one know if the vessel coming at you has a deep draft and therefore is restricted by the narrow channel?



Practical example - we're sailing the Intracoastal with a 7.5 foot draft. It can be done, although it does require being very mindful of the tides - even so- there are stretches where the depth is only 7-7.5 or 8 feet.



We have virtually no maneuvering room on those stretches and we certainly do feel "constrained by draft". For us this is a narrow channel - but for all the motorboats blasting by us - they don't realize this.



What should we fly? (assuming the motorboaters would recognize the signal -- which might be doubtful in many instances)

A can is the correct shape-- see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_shapes

Your post brings up a great point. ANYONE who considers themselves a serious boater should have a light and shape reference card or wheel. I am not to proud to say I carry one. Ever see a dredge with a boom lit up at night??

Here is a link to a simple reference card. https://www.mptusa.com/cart/product.cfm?p=518

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Snore

A can is the correct shape-- see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_shapes

Your post brings up a great point. ANYONE who considers themselves a serious boater should have a light and shape reference card or wheel. I am not to proud to say I carry one. Ever see a dredge with a boom lit up at night??

Here is a link to a simple reference card. https://www.mptusa.com/cart/product.cfm?p=518

Oh I know the day shape is a cylinder - but if the entire concept CBD is not recognized in the inland regs - then the cylinder will be meaningless to everyone here.

Having sailed in the US for almost 6 months now we've come to realize that anchor balls must be either extremely rare (good business opportunity) or ungodly expensive since no one but us and other foreign boats seem to be able to afford to have them - much less fly them

anchor lights also seem to be at a premium and I won't comment on the motorsailing cone which noone over here has

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by carstenb

[snip] anchor lights also seem to be at a premium and I won't comment on the motorsailing cone which noone over here has

I admit that having a cone up when motor sailing would cut down on my confusion about how I should interact with other sail and motor boats, but probably no one does it around here because it can go from dead calm to 30 knots and back again in the space of a few miles. It seems obvious, in those conditions, when a sail is under motor.

I can't think of any reason; however, for not having an anchor light on

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by carstenb

What should we fly?

I'm at the end of the extent of my knowledge here . . . . but I would suggest three thoughts:

(1) The inland rule simply does not recognize CBD, and gives you no special privilege (unlike international rule) in that situation, so you just have to do your best - stop or turn around or whatever. You chose to be there with that draft, so you just have to deal with it.

(2) If you judge your best to be so unsatisfactory as to be dangerous, then fly RAM. There is a parenthetical clause that gives you some cover for doing this - "Vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver include, but are not limited to:" Yea, I know the "from the nature of her work" clause here, but there is definite ambiguity built into the wording which a lawyer could argue in your favor. He might not win but it seems to me the best alternative in this hypothetical.

(3) In all likelihood very very few - you can assume zero - american yachtsmen will know what the day shapes mean. So practically speaking what to hoist is a moot point.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

(3) In all likelihood very very few - you can assume zero - american yachtsmen will know what the day shapes mean. So practically speaking what to hoist is a moot point.

I assumed this to be the case - but hope springs ever eternal

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Who "declares"? How is this supposed to work? What if the other vessel has a different opinion? Or, God forbid, is following the actual Rules?

Again, the question -- where do these "rules" come from? The actual legal Rules don't apply?

Not every vessel is a commercial 200'+ out on the water that knows and follows rules. There are too many people that I have encountered over years that have little clue to even basic navigation so I will continue to at least be well prepared to "get out of the way" rather than assume some burdened boat knows and follows the Coast Guard's Navigation Rules, International-Inland....UPDATED COMDTINST M16672.2D

Licensing could help although I for one have too much government in my face now so I do not support licensing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by foggysail

. . . I will continue to at least be well prepared to "get out of the way" rather than assume some burdened boat knows and follows the Coast Guard's Navigation Rules,. . .

What is a "burdened boat"?

And why "rather than"?

You are, absolutely, obligated to, "be well prepared to get out of the way" -- that is the rule -- there is no "rather than".