Corruption Index - 2003

[tp12]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If the "best" method is horribly flawed...I'd rather not pretend any method can accurately measure it.



So far haven't seen any reason to discredit the criticism.

Given it's called a perception index I can't see how it can be referred to as 'horribly flawed'. It's not pretending to actually measure corruption as any reasonable person can see that's impossible. It's clearly stated for anyone who wants to actually look into what they're doing instead of just reacting to what they think is going on.

I'd imagine it's named as it is for that very reason.

Calling it a self fulfilling prophecy, however, is not logical or reasonable and ignores their method.

[RaymondR]

If it was made a legitimate tax deduction by all countries then all one would need to do is ask the tax department.

Have a look at the statistics on the so called sports rorts affair. More than half the grants were awarded to electorates which support the left.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Have a look at the statistics on the so called sports rorts affair. More than half the grants were awarded to electorates which support the left.

What actually happened was that the vast majority of the grants were given to electorates that were marginal; ie, where either the conservatives had a chance of losing a seat or a chance of gaining one. The Sans Souci football club, in the Prime Minister's electorate, received a grant for a building that already existed!

Any suggestion that they handed out grants to safe Labor electorates or from anything other than a political motivation is laughable. Which is why Sports Australia complained and the Australian National Audit Office picked it up. It was corruption 101. The colour coded spreadsheet that was leaked clearly indicates this.

The curious bit, though, is why you're trying to defend the indefensible when you've already indicated you're perfectly happy with government corruption?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by tp12

Given it's called a perception index I can't see how it can be referred to as 'horribly flawed'. It's not pretending to actually measure corruption as any reasonable person can see that's impossible. It's clearly stated for anyone who wants to actually look into what they're doing instead of just reacting to what they think is going on.

I'd imagine it's named as it is for that very reason.

Calling it a self fulfilling prophecy, however, is not logical or reasonable and ignores their method.

What you describe is a great way to spread misinformation.

Most people won't make the distinction...or worse, it will generate a political will to address non-existent issues.

If they are serious researchers, they wouldn't even consider presenting such a useless piece of information unless they had ulterior motives.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What you describe is a great way to spread misinformation.

Most people won't make the distinction...or worse, it will generate a political will to address non-existent issues.

If they are serious researchers, they wouldn't even consider presenting such a useless piece of information unless they had ulterior motives.

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to hold it.

They make it very clear that it's a perception index and they explain their method. There's no attempt at any subterfuge here. No conspiracies so there's no justification for suggesting that it will be misrepresented.

Perhaps you should take the time to understand their method because forming an opinion without that understanding is of little real value to anyone else other than yourself. They're taken seriously by respected institutions with intelligent people on the payroll.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by tp12

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to hold it.

They make it very clear that it's a perception index and they explain their method. There's no attempt at any subterfuge here. No conspiracies so there's no justification for suggesting that it will be misrepresented.

Perhaps you should take the time to understand their method because forming an opinion without that understanding is of little real value to anyone else other than yourself. They're taken seriously by respected institutions with intelligent people on the payroll.

I have looked at their methodology...that's why I believe it to be misinformation (I threw in the benefit of the doubt that they could be incompetent just to be nice).

Sure they are very serious about supporting the agenda of the people who pay for their misinformation.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I have looked at their methodology...that's why I believe it to be misinformation (I threw in the benefit of the doubt that they could be incompetent just to be nice).

Sure they are very serious about supporting the agenda of the people who pay for their misinformation.

What is it, specifically, about their method or presentation that you think is misinformation?

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by tp12

What actually happened was that the vast majority of the grants were given to electorates that were marginal; ie, where either the conservatives had a chance of losing a seat or a chance of gaining one. The Sans Souci football club, in the Prime Minister's electorate, received a grant for a building that already existed!

Any suggestion that they handed out grants to safe Labor electorates or from anything other than a political motivation is laughable. Which is why Sports Australia complained and the Australian National Audit Office picked it up. It was corruption 101. The colour coded spreadsheet that was leaked clearly indicates this.

The curious bit, though, is why you're trying to defend the indefensible when you've already indicated you're perfectly happy with government corruption?

Gee, a minister of the federal government did not do what the bureaucrats told her to do and gave grants to folks that don't normally vote for her to build sports facilities without actually putting a cent into her own pocket. They don't come any more corrupt than that.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Gee, a minister of the federal government did not do what the bureaucrats told her to do and gave grants to folks that don't normally vote for her to build sports facilities without actually putting a cent into her own pocket. They don't come any more corrupt than that.

If that was true then it wouldn't be an issue. But I've already explained what happened and it's very far from that.



You didn't answer my question. You seem to be pivoting between it's not corrupt and it's just perception to everyone does it therefore it's ok back to it's not corruption.



Regarding Senator McKenzie, she ultimately resigned because she awarded a grant to a gun club she was a member of but 'forgot she was a member of'.


Trying to insinuate that it wasn't an attempt to shore up marginal seats, corruption, is absolutely laughable. Only the most partisan of people would attempt that, given the evidence in the public domain.

[weavis]

OK...

Can we get back to boating please?

[tp12]

Originally Posted by weavis

OK...

Can we get back to boating please?

Of course.


From a cruisers perspective, the government agencies that cruisers will deal with include the Border Protection Agency, Federal Police and Customs and Immigration. These are all in one ministerial portfolio headed by Peter Dutton who, in some circles, is considered to be one of the figureheads of the government's increasingly authoritarian approach and corruption. He's responsible for breaching our commitment to the UNHRC via the offshore detention of asylum seekers, for example. If I was a cruiser planning on visiting Australia I'd be keeping an eye on what is happening in this space, as I would most any country.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by tp12

Of course.


From a cruisers perspective, the government agencies that cruisers will deal with include the Border Protection Agency, Federal Police and Customs and Immigration. These are all in one ministerial portfolio headed by Peter Dutton who, in some circles, is considered to be one of the figureheads of the government's increasingly authoritarian approach and corruption. He's responsible for breaching our commitment to the UNHRC via the offshore detention of asylum seekers, for example. If I was a cruiser planning on visiting Australia I'd be keeping an eye on what is happening in this space, as I would most any country.

All nonsense, in eighteen years of cruising the coast of Australia between Cape Naturalist in the west, across the top and down to Sydney, my only contacts with officialdom have been a couple of calls on the VHF in reply to coast watch, a motor by and request for vessel details by an army landing barge off Cape York, a visit by a police boat at Middle Percey Island to check on safety equipment and a visit in the Tweed River by a maritime patrol to inform me of anchoring restrictions. At no time have I ever had any sort of demand, request or even hint in Australia for any sort of cash consideration from any official and they have all been nice polite people.

Australia is an exceptionally comfortable place for cruisers to visit and our biggest problem is to get the buggers to move on.

Australia now takes in about 35,000-40,000 genuine asylum seekers per year via the UNHCR, most of those held in detention are those who destroy their travel papers whilst trying to enter illegally with the assistance of criminal gangs.

Broaden your sources of information mate, if you keep watching that damned ABC you're almost bound to be driven further into a state of constant delusion and eventually deep depression. Watch Richo on Fox News occasionally, he's an old style lefty with a deep interest and sympathy for the people and not just the cause comrade.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

All nonsense, in eighteen years of cruising the coast of Australia between Cape Naturalist in the west, across the top and down to Sydney, my only contacts with officialdom have been a couple of calls on the VHF in reply to coast watch, a motor by and request for vessel details by an army landing barge off Cape York, a visit by a police boat at Middle Percey Island to check on safety equipment and a visit in the Tweed River by a maritime patrol to inform me of anchoring restrictions. At no time have I ever had any sort of demand, request or even hint in Australia for any sort of cash consideration from any official and they have all been nice polite people.

Firstly, that’s not the type of corruption we have in Australia and, as far as I can see, no one is making that claim. Secondly, you’re not a foreign flagged vessel entering Australian waters so your experience counts for little in this context.

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Australia is an exceptionally comfortable place for cruisers to visit and our biggest problem is to get the buggers to move on.

This I mostly agree with.

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Australia now takes in about 35,000-40,000 genuine asylum seekers per year via the UNHCR, most of those held in detention are those who destroy their travel papers whilst trying to enter illegally with the assistance of criminal gangs.

See now you’re just being silly. People fleeing their homes being bombed, being persecuted for various reasons etc often don’t have papers. This is normal. The vast majority of asylum seekers in offshore detention are granted asylum, proving they’re genuine. Additionally, seeking asylum is legal.

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Broaden your sources of information mate, if you keep watching that damned ABC you're almost bound to be driven further into a state of constant delusion and eventually deep depression. Watch Richo on Fox News occasionally, he's an old style lefty with a deep interest and sympathy for the people and not just the cause comrade.

I read a number of news sources. The ABC consistently polls as Australia’s most trusted news source. It is regularly investigated for bias, because every right winger in the country whinges about it, and while occasional instances of bias are found it is regularly found to have no systemic bias. That you then recommend watching a former left wing, Labor man who has sold out and taken the Murdoch cash appearing on the least trusted, most right wing echo chamber that Rupert Murdoch provides positions your politics on the spectrum. The problem is that right and far right wingers in Australia believe they’re ‘centrist’ or ‘centre-right’ and I bet that includes you. I wouldn’t be surprised if you referred to your own politics as ‘sensible centre’ ‘common sense’ and the like. This is a very common delusion here.

How does this affect cruisers coming to Australia? Aside from contact with the Border Force, Customs and Immigration upon entry, it’s very localised. French friends of mine, for example, who were cruising the coast were asked to move on twice while they were in Sydney Harbour. This doesn’t tend to happen in say Pittwater or in Queensland. Australian politics in general has moved to right and this is leading to more protectionist and authoritarian policy making at local, state and federal level. As cruisers it pays to keep an eye on these things as this leads to policy being changed that could impact what you can and can’t bring into the country, how long you can stay etc, and significantly, what penalties apply to you for minor to major breaches. Australia is already viewed by the international cruising community as having restrictive policies and being expensive and while we have a conservative federal government this more likely to get worse than better.

In my opinion, all cruisers should pay attention to the politics of the country they visit so they can best be prepared for what they’re likely to encounter. I do this wherever I travel.

[RaymondR]

We can'r keep this up forever, I've got other threads I need to be abusive or abrasive on and since I permanently cruise, boat work to do.

On the clearing in business.

I was an oil driller in Europe, the Middle East, South America and SE Asia so I have an excellent base line on corruption to make a comparison. As well as that I was responsible for importing millions of dollars of materials into Australia after I returned in 1985. Other than on the pre-notification problem after 911 I've not heard of yachties having much problem in clearing in and I get to meet a lot of them when cruising up and down the east Australian coast. Of course if you only hang out with lefties you're likely to hear an awful lot of whinging about everything.

On illegal immigrants.

Ahha, an open slatherer. Australians don't mind taking in a few genuine refugees, it's the queue jumping, self selecting, economic migrants who pay thousands of dollars to criminals they don't like. Not fair to those who wait patiently five or six years in a refugee camp somewhere waiting for a place. Qantas used to have a special team of toilet un-blockers in Perth to clear the torn up passports out of blocked aircraft toilets.

AHaaa, an ABC and Sydney Morning Herald man. You'll be on the ABCs preferred respondents list for their pollster.

How does this affect cruisers coming to Australia.

They read your posts and then think they will be up to their necks in corrupt officials demanding bucksheesh all the time, tune into the ABC and hear and see the entire continent aflame one day, flooded and under water the next, starving sheep and cattle wandering the streets of our towns and cities, poor French folks being driven out of Sydney harbour into a Tasman Sea gale, and the Sydney morning Herald reporting from front to back page that rape and child molesting are rampart because of the societal breakdown caused by global warming. You'd sail non stop back to the northern hemisphere to avoid going within a thousand nautical miles of a place like that.

Have a good easter mate.

[boatpoker]

Mexican and Caribbean corruption is at a level I can understand.
Canadian and American corruption is on a scale beyond my wildest financial fantasies.