Did I have to give way? Plus short-long blast.

[Pete7]

This could be read another way. The cruise ship was on the ball and issued some sound signals to attract your attention. They couldn't be sure you had seen them nor what you were about to do. Five blasts on a horn is much easier than having to change course and there might have been other much larger vessels which they had to take into consideration.

Seattle is a popular boating area, just think of the different vessels a cruise ship has to deal with. Everything from idiot jet skier, to sports boat doing 20 knots, little fishing boat chugging out to his favourite mark and yachts tacking back and forth.

They made some sound signals and averted a possible kerfuffle. It worked, no one got hurt, no one got close to each other and everyone went home that day.

Pete

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Five blasts means “I’m confused by your actions or lack of action”... get out of the way. Or more in line with your situation, “continuing to do what you’re doing is an extremely bad idea, because I can’t stop what I’m doing.”

You were in the wrong, doen’t matter that you were sailing. A cruise ship can take miles to stop or change course, and you need to understand this, a mile is way too close, very dumb move on your part.

You shouldn’d be out there endangering others and yourself without first reading the rules, then understanding them fully. The horn signals are basic, you never had any “rights,” there’s no such thing... you had an obligation to get out of the way to keep everyone safe.

Here’s a free copy of the rules, read them and learn: https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf

He never said he had rights, he said he thought he was the stand on vessel.

The cruise ship terminal is less than 3 miles from West point, the point of the outside of the bay. So you can't see the cruise ship until it pulls out of the dock less than 3 miles from you. Magnolia Bluff has shallows for more than a half mile out from shore in the area he's talking about. Most of the ships for some strange reason tend to turn to deeper water when coming out of the north end of Elliot Bay and seem to be happy that you're sailing into the shallow water out of their way.

But hey, you've been so pleasant in this thread, you're the first person I'll have ever flagged!

[Dave_S]

Was there any attempt to call on the radio ?

I would like to think if he/she was the give way vessel but was constrained by geography or other vessels they might call you and ask for your intentions or assistance.

Do you have AIS ?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

The situation:

Puget sound, not far from Seattle. I was on a J-120 (40') under sail, on port tack. I was close-hauled, about a 1.5-2 miles from land, heading toward the shoreline. I intended to tack away when I got about 1/4 mile from shore.

Far to starboard, (at least 3 miles) I saw a cruise ship coming out of Seattle, roughly going to cross my course, roughly on a collision course, and picking up speed. She was paralleling the coast, probably as close as her draft would safely allow.

As we got closer, it became obvious that yes, we were on a collision course, and someone would have to give way. Maybe 1 mile and closing.

I felt I was the stand-on vessel. She was much bigger but she was not in a channel, and could very easily have turned 10 degrees to her port (away from shore) and passed my stern.

However, I'm not going to die asserting my rights, so I instructed my crew to prepare to tack out of the way, on the theory that tonnage prevails in these situations.

The essential point here, so far not mentioned by anyone, is that at one mile, with a large fast moving vessel, you are already in a situation of immediate danger -- what is called "in extremis". So this is already AFTER any standing-on or giving-way has taken place. At this stage, the Rules require BOTH vessels to maneuver. See Rule 17, Action of Stand-On Vessel, and here is something really good: http://www.nepia.com/media/73256/Col...-On-Vessel.PDF "If you are the stand-on vessel, you cannot relax." And to give a clear answer to your question, "Did I have to Give Way?" -- yes, Rule 17(b), also Rule 17(a)(ii) plus Rule 2, requires you to get out of the way.





You should NEVER let yourself be on a collision course at one mile with a larger, faster vessel, because by that time, it is unlikely that you will be able to assure your own safety if your speed is much less than the other vessel's. This is not "subjective"; on the contrary,this is an objective fact of physics and geometry. Cruise ships normally operate at about 20 knots; your speed was what? 6 or 7? With 3x different in speed, you have relatively little influence over the crossing once you get that close, and less and less as you get closer, so you were no doubt saved by the cruise ship's action. The right thing to do if you do get caught out in such a situation (I can't say it's never happened to me, and if anyone tells you it's never happened to them, they are either lying or don't get out much ) is to bug out towards where you think the ship can't go or out of the traffic lane or whatever, but again -- don't let that happen in the first place. In harbours and approaches to harbours the key thing is to stay out of the channels and places deep enough for the ships to go, until there is not traffic coming.



You talk about "giving up rights" -- as Kenomac correctly, if somewhat abrasively said, you don't have any rights at all under the COLREGS -- not ever. This is the basic principle of them. There is no such thing as right of way at sea. If you are the stand-on vessel, then you have on the contrary on OBLIGATION to hold your course and speed for a certain period of time -- for the sole purpose of giving the give-way vessel control over the crossing. This is not any kind of right to just carry on sailing and let the other vessel deal with the problem. Once you doubt that the give-way vessel is doing anything, or can do anything, then you need to start maneuvering yourself. Dealing with a large vessel travelling at 20 knots you really don't want to wait past about 3 miles to start your own maneuver. 3 miles at 20 knots is only 9 minutes. How far can you travel in 9 minutes at whatever your speed is? Can you get out his way? To be out of his way, you have to be out of the cone of uncertainty about where he will be -- you can't know it very exactly. You really don't want much less than 9 minutes for this. People think that we're so maneuverable compared to big ships, but in open sea maneuverability is all about SPEED -- ships can change course just about as fast as we can, but can you travel the distance you need to get yourself somewhere which is definitely safe? That is the question.


As to TSS's -- I doubt that was this case. You have a chart and recognize what a TSS is, right? You should regard TSS's like motorways, and yourself like a bicyclist. Don't impede the traffic in the TSS, and if you use it, travel only the in correct direction of traffic and stay at the far edge of the lane, cross only at right angles (heading not COG) and stay out of the way of traffic. See Rule 10 -- Traffic Separation Schemes. Another principle which may or may not have been applicable is Rule 9 -- Narrow Channels.



But none of this is applicable once you are in an in extremis situation, one mile from a ship travelling at 20 knots and on a collision course. At that stage, your obligation is to get the hell out of the way, if you even can.


And also: Even at a safe distance -- 3 to 5 miles -- if you have any doubt that the ship is going to turn away, turn yourself. Rule 17.


And even more than that -- if you are able to discern a potential developing risk of collision, at a distance prior to when the risk of collision already exists (that is the point where the give-way and stand-on rules start to apply), say at 10 miles, then just change your course or speed so you don't have this encounter at all and a risk of collision doesn't arise int the first place. Not always possible, but that's good seamanship to look for opportunities to do that. But it's nearly always possible in approaches to harbours because you know where the ships will go -- if there are not buoyed fairways, there are usually pretty well defined traffic lanes. Just stay out of them unless there is no traffic around.


I hope this is helpful.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

Was there any attempt to call on the radio ?

I would like to think if he/she was the give way vessel but was constrained by geography or other vessels they might call you and ask for your intentions or assistance.

Do you have AIS ?

At one mile?


A vessel traveling at 20 knots will cover one mile in 3 minutes.


VHF can be very helpful, but I think one mile is far too late for chit chat.

[Sojourner]

For fun I tried my internet sleuthing, since noone actually answered the question of what a short - prolonged sound signal means. I could find nothing, unless the cruise ship was signalling he had a diver down while steaming and blasted a morse A

Only thing I can think of is were there other big ships in the area at the time? If the bay is really so tight, perhaps you heard sound signals from another ship or more than one ship, and thought it was the cruise making all the racket by herself? The 5 blasts then came for obvious reasons..... ?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

I don't have a hard-on to play chicken with a ship. That is why I was instructing my crew to prepare to tack when we were still separated by a mile.

This is very good


The only thing you did wrong was to wait until 1 mile.



You're probably a racer, am I right? Racers live in a different universe -- they think in much shorter time and distance horizons from the rest of us. For some of them a boat length is an awesome amount of distance.


You can't really do the collision avoidance "dance", if you don't understand the TIMING of the 4 stages of it.


When dealing with big ships in open water, their typical decision point is 10 miles. You can't say hard or fast rules because it varies with circumstances, density of the traffic, etc, but 10 miles is pretty typical. By this time, they are typically trained to not let a radar target approach without having determined whether or not a collision risk exists. If there is a collision risk, then they start watching closely and planning what to do.



Sometimes they will alter course already by about that time, ESPECIALLY when dealing with recreational vessels. They generally have a low opinion about our skills (they call us "WAFIs"), and don't like to depend on our maneuvering correctly, so very many commercial mariners I know like whenever it's practical to maneuver early so that the WAFI never even perceives that there was ever anything to worry about, and cannot no matter what a dumb move he makes, cause a collision. His ability to do so depends a lot on the difference of speed -- big difference of speed gives a lot of control over the crossing.


Normally larger commercial vessels will not wait until more than about 3 or 4 miles to make their move. From roughly 10 miles up until roughly 3 or 4 miles is the typical stand-on give-way phase, when they will most likely make their move, if they are going to, so you should obey your obligation to stand on during this phase, if you are the stand-on vessel. If you reach that point, however, and they have not maneuvered by that time, then you should doubt that they will, and start to feel free to make your own move.


Note that this can be all quite different in less than open sea, or if a lot of traffic is around, or with certain crossing geometry. An acute angle crossing, with each vessel fine on the bow to the other, is the most dangerous and requires longer time horizons. Very often a ship has to deal with more than one vessel at a time, which may affect the timing and even the ability of him to make a move. That's just one more reason why you must be ready to maneuver when you are the stand-on vessel.



When you do make your own move, it should be in good time, and it should be an obvious and large change of course of speed so that what you are doing is obvious to the other vessel. Normally you should not pass closer than 1 mile in open water -- that's a typical minimum CPA in open water (some even use 2 miles). So calculate your move to stay at least that far apart at CPA. I normally try to do this by 3 miles



Be very alert in case he starts to maneuver himself -- lest the two of you unwittingly maneuver into each other -- a common cause of accidents and one of the main things the collision avoidance "dance" is intended to prevent. Don't turn to port unless there is no reasonable alternative -- he will normally turn to starboard when he can.


I hope this is helpful.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by cal40john

He never said he had rights, he said he thought he was the stand on vessel.

The cruise ship terminal is less than 3 miles from West point, the point of the outside of the bay. So you can't see the cruise ship until it pulls out of the dock less than 3 miles from you. Magnolia Bluff has shallows for more than a half mile out from shore in the area he's talking about. Most of the ships for some strange reason tend to turn to deeper water when coming out of the north end of Elliot Bay and seem to be happy that you're sailing into the shallow water out of their way.

But hey, you've been so pleasant in this thread, you're the first person I'll have ever flagged!

Quote from post #1: ”However, I'm not going to die asserting my rights, so I instructed my crew to prepare to tack out of the way, on the theory that tonnage prevails in these situations.”

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

A mile is way too close, I’m truly surprised that you don’t seem to understand this.

A mile may be too close offshore someplace but in busy ports, it's normal to cross a ship's bow at 1000-1500 yards which I have done on several occasions (in a good breeze)

Other times, I have waited a couple hundred yards just outside the channel while a container ship, bulk carrier, or tanker etc past. Or sailed parallel at 100-150 yards then turned to cross just as his stern passed

If your actions are confusing to the pilot, captain, or whomever is at the helm of one of these ships, you will usually be hailed on channel 16

[44'cruisingcat]

LOL. If one mile is way too close, a lot of you would have no chance of sailing in Sydney harbour!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by thomm225

A mile may be too close offshore someplace but in busy ports, it's normal to cross a ship's bow at 1000-1500 yards which I have done on several occasions (in a good breeze)

Other times, I have waited a couple hundred yards just outside the channel while a container ship, bulk carrier, or tanker etc past. Or sailed parallel at 100-150 yards then turned to cross just as his stern passed

If your actions are confusing to the pilot, captain, or whomever is at the helm of one of these ships, you will usually be hailed on channel 16

Dockhead’s assessment is spot on, it’s time for some remedial reading for you.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thomm225

A mile may be too close offshore someplace but in busy ports, it's normal to cross a ship's bow at 1000-1500 yards which I have done on several occasions (in a good breeze)

Other times, I have waited a couple hundred yards just outside the channel while a container ship, bulk carrier, or tanker etc past. Or sailed parallel at 100-150 yards then turned to cross just as his stern passed

If your actions are confusing to the pilot, captain, or whomever is at the helm of one of these ships, you will usually be hailed on channel 16

I wouldn't cross that close ahead of a ship anywhere if I were you. What if the wind dies suddenly?


Waiting a couple hundred yards outside of a CHANNEL is just fine, as is sailing along it. Even a couple of TENS of yards might be ok if you are clearly outside the channel and in water too shallow for him to get into. Be careful if his wash, however!


But this incident took place in open water, outside of the port, and apparently with no channels or fairways anywhere. It is one entirely different thing, when the ship is navigating in a channel, and you know to inches where he will be, and when the ship is in open water, and you don't.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

LOL. If one mile is way too close, a lot of you would have no chance of sailing in Sydney harbour!

Note well -- IN OPEN WATER. In harbours, or approaches to harbours, entirely different principles are at play.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

At one mile?


A vessel traveling at 20 knots will cover one mile in 3 minutes.


VHF can be very helpful, but I think one mile is far too late for chit chat.

Please read post #17.

[250224]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I spent several thousand USD on my 100 ton Captains course and the ICC certification offered by RYA, along with courses back in the 1970’s because I take my boating responsibilities seriously.

So please start taking your social forum responsibilities seriously! Might want to spend some money for courses to improve your manners. Don't you find it strange that often when I read threads here, it is exactly/only you which sticks out in a very negative way?

If you need a motivation: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/0...apology_break/. It can be done