Do the potty police have science on their side?

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

ALL boats are governed by NDZ rules, not just the minority with types 1 & 2 systems. That's the point.

Perhaps it's semantics, but no, NDZ rules don't apply to boats with holding tanks. Holding tanks have been required, and discharge prohibited, since the 1970s (give or take a bit) unless you have a Type 1 or 2. If no boats had LectraSans, there would be no meaning behind a NDZ (the law would basically say that in addition to not being allowed to discharge, you also can't discharge). The ONLY boats impacted by a NDZ are those with LectraSans -- and the impact is on the order of a couple thousand dollars (if you pay someone -- obviously substantially less if you do it yourself, and even lower if you use a bladder instead of a tank).

The real frustration here is that the number of boats impacted is VERY small, and therefore the improvement to the environment is VERY small, yet the cost to the small number of boaters is VERY LARGE. It really is "optics politics" -- it's too hard to fix stuff that matters, but we'll pass a law that looks mean and doesn't piss off too many people.

A much better way to have a much larger impact on water nutrients would be to ban retail sales of lawn chemicals (or better yet, all residential use of lawn chemicals). While that would have a much larger effect, it would piss off far too many voters.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Seriously? or you just couldn't be bothered?

What circuits did you extend, and what was the box count after you were done? You're in the trade so there's a halfway good chance you did it right, but I've seen what most people do, and it ain't pretty. There's a reason for electrical permits and inspections.

In what trade? You sure assume a lot !



A four foot extension to one 20 amp circuit for this laptop and a couple small lamps, both with LED's.
Three duplex outlets, all split for one socket each switched for the lighting.
Not rocket science.


Sorry for the thread drift.

[LEOCAT66]

I have a question and a dilemma.


In our marina we have around 18 live aboards out of 100 slips. The marina is always full. There is one live aboard, who has no holding tank. He refuses to go to the bathroom facility and is dumping raw sewerage into the water on a daily basis. When confronted he said that all waste is kept in a bucket and is dumped each day. I have not witnessed this, but he acknowledges that he has no holding tank nor have I ever seen him in the rest room. This has apparently been going on for several years, undetected until recently. He claims that what he is doing is legal and cannot be stopped.


Yesterday I spoke to the local sheriff who was totally unconcerned. In the recent past I have attempted to interest the Coast Guard in raw whatever being dumped by a barge into the same marina. They were not interested and refused to come out. Obviously todays Coast Guard is not same as in the past.


Any suggestions? While said activity is against marina rules and specifically outlined in the lease document, there is no evidence other than his oral statement.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

I have a question and a dilemma.


In our marina we have around 18 live aboards out of 100 slips. The marina is always full. There is one live aboard, who has no holding tank. He refuses to go to the bathroom facility and is dumping raw sewerage into the water on a daily basis. When confronted he said that all waste is kept in a bucket and is dumped each day. I have not witnessed this, but he acknowledges that he has no holding tank nor have I ever seen him in the rest room. This has apparently been going on for several years, undetected until recently. He claims that what he is doing is legal and cannot be stopped.


Yesterday I spoke to the local sheriff who was totally unconcerned. In the recent past I have attempted to interest the Coast Guard in raw whatever being dumped by a barge into the same marina. They were not interested and refused to come out. Obviously todays Coast Guard is not same as in the past.


Any suggestions? While said activity is against marina rules and specifically outlined in the lease document, there is no evidence other than his oral statement.

Well, he's both wrong & right. What (it looks like) he's doing is obviously illegal but it's doubtful it can be stopped.

Going on for several years, undetected until recently, no concern nor interest from the marina, local LE or the USCG. Maybe this all suggests they have (much) higher priorities when it comes to public health or the safety of marine life? Btw, I also agree the USCG isn't the same as it was in the past -- it's a lot better imo! I bet you'd get more of a response to a significant fuel spill at your marina, but that's arguably more of an environmental threat to one boat out of a 100 dumping overboard.

Yours is a useful example of why the installation of onboard treatment devices should not be discouraged. It also serves to illustrate why enforcement is simply not a factor, and the regs are 99% dependent on voluntary compliance. NDZs do nothing to deter illegal discharge, but are largely the reason boaters remove or decline to install treatment systems. A classic example of how uninformed, emotionally-based policies do more harm than good.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

In what trade? You sure assume a lot !

I thought I read that you were in boat maintenance or similar. (hence your name). That's what I meant by "trade". Sorry if that's not the case.

A four foot extension to one 20 amp circuit for this laptop and a couple small lamps, both with LED's.
Three duplex outlets, all split for one socket each switched for the lighting.
Not rocket science.

But enough to kill someone or start a fire, if done incorrectly.

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I would venture to guess that most boaters would comply, more or less, because it's the right thing to do. The law is mainly prescriptive; enforcement will serve to catch those who didn't know about it, or are too lazy to comply. The small group of cruisers who think it's a massive injustice will of course find their way around it.

And again, here's someone else saying how hard it is to enforce, yet also supporting those who want an exception for Types 1 & 2, which would make enforcement even harder. Nice.



..except that no type 1 or 2 system meets the EPA or USCG standards for an NDZ. It's in the name...


Wow, did you get that from Alex Jones? The idea is to get to no sewage discharge in an NDZ. From any boat. No government conspiracy.


ALL boats are governed by NDZ rules, not just the minority with types 1 & 2 systems. That's the point.

Spoken with the legalism of the "Potty Police" trying to justify their jobs.

[Pelagic]

As Shakespeare would have phrased:
Much Ado-do about nothing!

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

[LEOCAT66] is a useful example of why the installation of onboard treatment devices should not be discouraged.

Seriously? The only difference would be that instead of dumping unmacerated sewage in a marina, they'd be dumping macerated sewage. A bit better but not a whole lot.

It also serves to illustrate why enforcement is simply not a factor, and the regs are 99% dependent on voluntary compliance. NDZs do nothing to deter illegal discharge, but are largely the reason boaters remove or decline to install treatment systems. A classic example of how uninformed, emotionally-based policies do more harm than good.

NDZs are to stop the dumping of ANY sewage in the area. Use of type 1 & 2 systems does not reduce the amount of sewage dumped. How many times we gotta say this?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Seriously? The only difference would be that instead of dumping unmacerated sewage in a marina, they'd be dumping macerated sewage. A bit better but not a whole lot.




NDZs are to stop the dumping of ANY sewage in the area. Use of type 1 & 2 systems does not reduce the amount of sewage dumped. How many times we gotta say this?

You still don't seem to understand the difference between treated & untreated sewage as it relates to the different types of systems. For starters, most of the harmful bacteria is rendered inert via electricity &/or chlorine. Maceration is only part of it, and it has little to do with overall "amounts." Until you get past your personal phobia about poop in the water you'll continue to have trouble staying up with the discussion. You can find the Raritan/Electrosan websites on your own, right?

I've tried my best. Maybe someone else can help this guy out??

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Exile

I've tried my best. Maybe someone else can help this guy out??

He's a Potty Policeman.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

He's a Potty Policeman.

All I know is, if tasked with potty enforcement, I don't think real potty policemen would have nearly as hard a time telling the difference btwn the different types of systems or figuring out how they work.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

You still don't seem to understand the difference between treated & untreated sewage as it relates to the different types of systems. For starters, most of the harmful bacteria is rendered inert via electricity &/or chlorine. Maceration is only part of it, and it has little to do with overall "amounts." Until you get past your personal phobia about poop in the water you'll continue to have trouble staying up with the discussion. You can find the Raritan/Electrosan websites on your own, right?
I've tried my best. Maybe someone else can help this guy out??

it would be so much more impactful if your white flag had a skidmark on it.

MSD-treated (aka disinfected) sewage is still sewage. This is unlike the treatment provided by most municipal waste treatment plants which do a better job of disinfection, and remove most of the solids and toxins. You still don't understand continue to ignore the reasons why an NDZ is usually declared. From one of the easy-to-find sources that you refuse to search out and read:

An NDZ helps reduce nutrient pollution because sewage contains nitrogen and phosphorous. Since sewage is organic matter, the bacteria that break it down use oxygen from the water, which lowers the dissolved oxygen available for other organisms. Although fecal coliform bacteria levels are reduced, they are still higher than otherwise found in the water, and can transmit diseases such as hookworm, tapeworm, diarrhea, salmonella infections, and more. Boat sewage is a contributing factor in beach closings caused by fecal coliform bacteria levels being deemed dangerous for swimmers. Filter feeders living in the water such as oysters can be infected with these pathogens and pass them on to those who eat them. The deodorizers and treatment chemicals such as chlorine, formaldehyde and quaternary ammonia used in marine sanitation devices can be toxic to marine life.

I've done my share of plumbing on land and afloat and I've changed a diaper or two. It's no big hardship. But I don't seem to have the same affection for it as you, and I seem to be alone in not wanting to impose my organic output on others who might not share your enjoyment of it.

Hey this is CF, the summer boating season is done, and so there's nothing like a nice manufactured controversy to help the winter pass. But moaning about the cruel injustice of NDZ laws... Aren't there anchors or something else to get worked up about?

[Paul L]

Human sources of nutrients from within the Puget Sound basin typically include wastewater from sewage treatment plants, runoff from agriculture and lawns and gardens, leaky septic tanks, stormwater and atmospheric deposition via the burning of fossil fuels and organic matter.

https://www.eopugetsound.org/magazine/is/nutrients
So do you think the NDZ is working?....

[senormechanico]

L-E,Have you ever seen any municipal treatment plants that never discharge any bacteria and/or solids?
Ever heard of CSO's during a rain event?
Get back to us when you have convinced every municipal plant to dissect the sewage input from the storm sewers.


Oh, and Coast Guard approved MSD Type I not only macerates but DISINFECTS with electricity through the mix, rendering it pretty much sterile.
Don't give me that "macerates only" crap. Ooh, a pun !

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

it would be so much more impactful if your white flag had a skidmark on it.

MSD-treated (aka disinfected) sewage is still sewage. This is unlike the treatment provided by most municipal waste treatment plants which do a better job of disinfection, and remove most of the solids and toxins. You still don't understand continue to ignore the reasons why an NDZ is usually declared. From one of the easy-to-find sources that you refuse to search out and read:

I've done my share of plumbing on land and afloat and I've changed a diaper or two. It's no big hardship. But I don't seem to have the same affection for it as you, and I seem to be alone in not wanting to impose my organic output on others who might not share your enjoyment of it.

Hey this is CF, the summer boating season is done, and so there's nothing like a nice manufactured controversy to help the winter pass. But moaning about the cruel injustice of NDZ laws... Aren't there anchors or something else to get worked up about?

Congrats on finally educating yourself a bit. Now all you need to do is understand why the oft-stated quip that "the solution to pollution is dilution" holds true with the topic at hand. No, nothing to do with dog poop or human urine in a city park, and the false imagery of "turds floating by" is also no help. I'm sure most of what is stated in your conservation source holds true. As usual, however, it's what's left out that is misleading.