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Exile · 25-10-2018, 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Seriously? If not environmental, then what is the point of an NDZ? You might think it's a token effort, but it's still the point.

Some folks should stop treating every little law that happens to annoy them as gummint malfeasance or overreach.

Not every little law, just the one about NDZs.

And in this case you can simply not like it because it's harmful to the environment since it discourages the installation of onboard treatment devices. Trying to prevent harm to the environment is what "environmentalists" used to be about, right?

Lake-Effect · 25-10-2018, 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exile

Not every little law, just the one about NDZs.

And in this case you can simply not like it because it's harmful to the environment since it discourages the installation of onboard treatment devices. Trying to prevent harm to the environment is what "environmentalists" used to be about, right?

It encourages the installation of better systems - Types 1 & 2 systems with holding tanks

. Providing Americans with jobs making and installing holding tanks. JAWBS! Don't you want to MAGA?

sailingharry · 25-10-2018, 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It encourages the installation of better systems - Types 1 & 2 systems with holding tanks

. Providing Americans with jobs making and installing holding tanks. JAWBS! Don't you want to MAGA?

I was beginning to wonder why you think this is a good idea, and then looked up the Sandpiper. Now I understand (and that isn't meant offensively). You don't deal with these issues. On my 34' boat, my options to put in a holding tank are:
* Convert a water tank to a holding tank (and lose precious water capacity)
* Install a tank in the bottom of my hanging locker (and figure out where to store the stuff that is there -- and probably lose the ability to hang anything)
* Remove the L/S and custom build a 5, maybe 10 gallon tank. (really, the only viable option).

Plumbing in a holding tank in addition to a L/S would be far more complex than the value. Seriously. Draw it out sometime. Include a holding tank, a macerator pump, a deck suction line, and all the valves and piping to make it all work with a L/S and a holding tank. And then fit all the piping into an existing boat.

I'd be more than happy to let you work in the project with me!

Exile · 25-10-2018, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It encourages the installation of better systems - Types 1 & 2 systems with holding tanks

. Providing Americans with jobs making and installing holding tanks. JAWBS! Don't you want to MAGA?

It's kinda like Active Captain (or used to be), I'm only in it for the hat.

Lake-Effect · 25-10-2018, 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I was beginning to wonder why you think this is a good idea, and then looked up the Sandpiper. Now I understand (and that isn't meant offensively). You don't deal with these issues.

None taken.. cos I do, indirectly. I've cruised on larger boats, and helped install and repair boat sanitation systems.

I take your point that compliance could be a not-inconsiderable expense and hassle for those few without a holding tank. And that their discharge would be insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I don't think it's sufficient reason to weaken or add complexity to what's basically a good idea: protect the area made an NDZ, from all sources of contamination, including recreational boats.

Enforcement is probably going to be sparse, and it's arguable that the LEOs themselves will maybe give cruisers a pass, because they'll have their hands full with the party-boats and the yahoos as usual. Or judges will be sympathetic to the cost argument, should a charge be laid. That should be sufficient, as boats gradually get upgraded/retired/relocated/sold?

senormechanico · 25-10-2018, 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Yes!

Rail all you want against gummint and potty police and regulations, but something's working in the Chesapeake Bay, somehow, with the choices being made. Not perfect, but going in the right direction, despite small pockets of disagreement.

And coprophiliacs need to accept that their preferences aren't universally shared.

Chesapeake Bay might be slowly (and you think mysteriously?) coming back because cars don't leak oil anywhere near (if at all) like they did when I was a kid.

senormechanico · 25-10-2018, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuW

Ganges Harbour, Salt Spring Island, British Columbia. We were anchored on a brilliant sunny day. Looking over the side into crystal clear water, the bottom of the harbour was liberally coated with sheets of toilet paper...it put the idea of swimming out of my mind, anyway. The mussels and barnacles were particularly huge around there.

There is a type of seaweed in the PNW that looks just like TP.
At low tide, you will find it's a plant.

hellosailor · 25-10-2018, 14:54

Lake-
Ignoring the questionable reasons behind sewage regulations overall, don't you think that twenty years to so is more than enough time for "slowly" coming into compliance?
Dumping laws, NDZs, boat construction and USCG regulations, these are not new issues.

"Or judges will be sympathetic to the cost argument, should a charge be laid. That should be sufficient, as boats slowly get upgraded/retired/relocated/sold?"

There are many boats that were inadequately fitted out 40 years ago, and haven't been upgraded since. And, some clever owners dropping in buckets (non-composting heads) in their effort to come into quick cheap compliance.

Arguing for reasonable sewage treatment is one thing. Arguing about how many decades it takes to bring a boat "up to code"....not so much.

Delfin · 25-10-2018, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Yes!

Rail all you want against gummint and potty police and regulations, but something's working in the Chesapeake Bay, somehow, with the choices being made. Not perfect, but going in the right direction, despite small pockets of disagreement.

And coprophiliacs need to accept that their preferences aren't universally shared.

Perhaps Chesapeake Bay is getting cleaner for the same reason Lake Washington did. They stopped dumping raw sewage into it from municipalities. Lake Washington is covered with boats, the majority of which flush their johnnies directly into the lake. When they passed the Metro bill in the late 50's, the lake gradually became crystal clear, as it is today. And trust me...in the 70s no one worried about MSDs.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/services/...ton-story.aspx

And I knew Corporal Philiac. Corporal Philiac was a friend of mine. And you, sir, are no Corporal Philiac.

SuW · 25-10-2018, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by senormechanico

There is a type of seaweed in the PNW that looks just like TP.
At low tide, you will find it's a plant.

Well, if they are rectangular, white and float by the observer when another crew member is enthusiastically pumping the forward head, I stand corrected!

jtsailjt · 25-10-2018, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuW

Well, if they are rectangular, white and float by the observer when another crew member is enthusiastically pumping the forward head, I stand corrected!

You think you saw an intact, rectangular, piece of TP float by after being pumped through a marine head? That must have been some very serious TP!

But I think you bring up a good point and that is it’s a good idea to stay away from any TP advertised as rugged or extra strong, etc. and instead use thin TP that breaks down easily so it’s less likely to clog your plumbing or settle into the bottom of your holding tank or make it out through the thru-hull in a semi-intact state.

We sometimes get the stuff made for marine heads or the thin Scott’s TP which also seems to dissolve easily. Gotta be a bit careful though because it’s NOT rugged!

Lake-Effect · 25-10-2018, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

You think you saw an intact, rectangular, piece of TP float by after being pumped through a marine head? That must have been some very serious TP!

But I think you bring up a good point and that is it’s a good idea to stay away from any TP advertised as rugged or extra strong, etc. and instead use thin TP that breaks down easily so it’s less likely to clog your plumbing or settle into the bottom of your holding tank or make it out through the thru-hull in a semi-intact state.

We sometimes get the stuff made for marine heads or the thin Scott’s TP which also seems to dissolve easily. Gotta be a bit careful though because it’s NOT rugged!

Wusses. Real sailors wipe with a winch-handle. The knurled side.

thinwater · 25-10-2018, 18:58

The holding tank regulation applies to US territorial waters and 3 miles from shore. In the case of the Chesapeake Bay, which is much larger than the Puget Sound, the entire bay is inland waters, and thus there is no discharge of untreated waste in the Bay, even if you are more than 3 miles from shore (which is common mid-Bay). The reasoning is that the Chesapeake bay is bounded by the US and is thus wholly a part of that sovereign territory. The Puget sound, on the other hand is shared with Canada, and so is not an inland water and the 3-mile from land rule is applicable.

That may be the difference. They would like to have untreated discharge restricted, as it is in the Chesapeake, but there is no simple legal way to do that. An NDZ is much simpler to establish, because of the way the law is written.

Yes, there are more politics, but I think this wrinkle is a part of it. An NDZ was the only mechanism for the state to exert control over the waters of the US, since they are not state waters.