Do the potty police have science on their side?

[Kenomac]

When I googled “fear of feces” this is what I found:

Coprophobia

Coprophobia (from Greek conpro, "feces") is the fear of feces. This fear might have been brought about by a bad experience in the past, such as when as a child, one was not allowed to go to the bathroom by a mean teacher and was unable to avoid pooping in his underwear inside the classroom. One might have also accidently stepped on dog poop while walking in the park and getting one’s favorite shoes all messy and dirty.

Coprophobes would avoid going to public toilets or going to parks where they think they might step on animal poop. They will put deodorizers in their bathrooms to mask the smell of feces and would do everything to disinfect after defecation.

This fear requires medical attention as soon as possible because it is essential to defecate at least once a day or once every couple of days. Psychotherapy and medications are most likely needed to combat this fear.

Here’s the link: http://phobia.wikia.com/wiki/Coprophobia

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

When I googled “fear of feces” this is what I found:

Coprophobia

Coprophobia (from Greek conpro, "feces") is the fear of feces. This fear might have been brought about by a bad experience in the past, such as when as a child, one was not allowed to go to the bathroom by a mean teacher and was unable to avoid pooping in his underwear inside the classroom. One might have also accidently stepped on dog poop while walking in the park and getting one’s favorite shoes all messy and dirty.

Coprophobes would avoid going to public toilets or going to parks where they think they might step on animal poop. They will put deodorizers in their bathrooms to mask the smell of feces and would do everything to disinfect after defecation.

This fear requires medical attention as soon as possible because it is essential to defecate at least once a day or once every couple of days. Psychotherapy and medications are most likely needed to combat this fear.

Here’s the link: Coprophobia | Phobia Wiki | FANDOM powered by Wikia

Good one Ken. Quite a lot out there it would seem. Science will never satisfy them.
: trash:

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Your fear of human feces is irrational.

And your apparent fondness is amusing. But you didn't answer the question.

[john61ct]

What is the name for "overly concerned about BMs?"

Anywhere from three times a day to three times a week is normal.

Just change your diet and your usual pattern will change.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

The test of any such prescription is how well it scales. If you think that all boaters should replace their holding tanks with treatment systems that immediately discharge after every flush, which most often happens at anchor, or near a beach or popular spot, or in a marina or club... well, it's a free world.

You seem inclined towards "prescriptive" measures rather than consensus on what's actually reasonable & practical. Not just you, of course, but your posts do serve as an excellent example of the high-minded, ill-informed mindset that often leads to such unpopular & ineffective rules & regs.

I never said nor suggested, nor has anyone else, that everyone should replace their holding tank systems with Type I's & II's that flush treated sewage directly overboard. That will likely never happen due to cost, among other factors. But it is a sensible alternative for those who don't have the space for holding tanks, or do but would have to undergo great expense to fit one.

You also seem to forget that flushing untreated sewage directly overboard is the norm outside the US & Canada, including popular cruising grounds such as the Med & Caribbean. Apparently there are laws on the books prohibiting this in some of these places, but it remains the norm and I'm not aware of any reports of public health issues from the practice.

It's easy to present extreme scenarios where overboard discharge would seem unhealthy; quite another to find realistic, pragmatic solutions that encourage responsible behavior.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

1) "harmless"? yes it's somewhat treated - coliform and other pathogens have largely been killed. To only, roughly speaking, 5 times the pathogen levels of the discharge from municipal treatment.

Prove your numbers, don't just blather as usual.
Peggie quoted the ElectroScan numbers so as they say, put up or shut up.


BTW, L-E is to this thread as the Sheen Marine guy was to the lithium thread.

Maybe the same guy with a different account? Hmmmm...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

What’s your issue regarding harmless treated waste being flushed in small amounts? ‘Seems like this would normally be the goal of a sensible and rational environmentalist.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

1) "harmless"? yes it's somewhat treated - coliform and other pathogens have largely been killed. To only, roughly speaking, 5 times the pathogen levels of the discharge from municipal treatment.

Where are you coming up with this stat? Not necessarily claiming it's wrong, but do you have a source?

2) that's it; beyond the maceration there's no other treatment to the waste.

What?? How about chlorination? Did you read up on the process Lectrasan uses per the recently posted link?

But yes... a few boats in a large body of water... not a problem. Harmless.

Wow, progress. Good thing that "a few boats in a large body of water" is mainly what the thread is about.

So, if it's such a great idea, it should scale, no?

No, not necessarily. One of the major points being stressed here. The concentration/dilution deal again. We're not talking about PCBs or radioactive waste here. Or is that your confusion??

Ok, let's imagine this seaside scenario (the Landing sandbar in Fort Walton Beach), and every MSD-equipped boat present directly discharges (mostly) disinfected, macerated waste after every flush.



Wouldn't be my personal choice of a cruising area but those folks seem to be enjoying themselves. Anyone get sick?

Now, we know you've rationalized it away, and everybody pees when swiming right? Nonetheless... I think a bunch of mothers would have qualms about letting their kids wade and swim in it. kapeesh? as the great Exile might say.

Sure, and a lot of mothers (and fathers ) have qualms about letting their kids swim in municipal pools or using the bathrooms at Walmart. Or using such facilities themselves for that matter. Or not washing their hands after exchanging paper money, or yada, yada, yada . . . . What's your point here?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

You seem inclined towards "prescriptive" measures rather than consensus on what's actually reasonable & practical. Not just you, of course, but your posts do serve as an excellent example of the high-minded, ill-informed mindset that often leads to such unpopular & ineffective rules & regs.

And the opponents of NDZ regs here are equating them with government malfeasance and politics, or enviro-authoritarians, or telling us that marinating in eau de macerated poop isn't all that bad. Which is why this thread is so amusing.
And you don't get to use the word "consensus".

I never said nor suggested, nor has anyone else, that everyone should replace their holding tank systems with Type I's & II's that flush treated sewage directly overboard.

If you or someone else is saying that those systems are better ecologically than a holding tank, or that where/when they discharge is not a problem (hiya Ken)... then that suggestion IS being made.

You also seem to forget that flushing untreated sewage directly overboard is the norm outside the US & Canada, including popular cruising grounds such as the Med & Caribbean. Apparently there are laws on the books prohibiting this in some of these places, but it remains the norm and I'm not aware of any reports of public health issues from the practice.

So you ARE suggesting that discharging waste wherever/whenever is not that bad, or even OK? Public health aside, there's other reasons besides science for discouraging some practices like discharging just anywhere... remember the park.

But it is a sensible alternative for those who don't have the space for holding tanks, or do but would have to undergo great expense to fit one....
It's easy to present extreme scenarios where overboard discharge would seem unhealthy; quite another to find realistic, pragmatic solutions that encourage responsible behavior.

You know what? I pretty much agree with all that. But the fun here came from the extremes the opponents would go to to justify their opposition. And of course your epic post of distortions, misquotes, bad facts, accusations and ad hominems to accuse me of "personalization, emotion & stereotyping"

Yes, there is an argument to be made for not burdening those who currently have those systems without holding tanks. And there is still a valid argument for making no discharge in sensitive areas from ANY source a reasonable long-term goal.


So, how's this:

• Any boat currently so equipped as of some date, eg Jan 2019, is grandfathered in.
• The grandfathered boats are ok for as long as that owner has the boat, and that system is functioning properly. If the system fails, it must be replaced with a NDZ compliant system (eg a holding tank, with or without additional treatment)
• If the boat is sold, the new owner must comply to sail in NDZs. The seller can of course sell to someone who does not sail in/around NDZs.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

Where are you coming up with this stat? Not necessarily claiming it's wrong, but do you have a source?

It was part of the last PDF I linked to a while back, where independent testing of various brands of treating MSDs was done. Also, consider that the stats published by the manufacturers naturally assume a top-condition, properly functioning system. Do all owners run them properly and maintain them? Or keep topping up with the right chemicals? There's going to be a big variance from all that, ranging from fully detoxified, to poo-in-a-blender.
(you have a look too, Señor M)

What?? How about chlorination? Did you read up on the process Lectrasan uses per the recently posted link?

yes. Try to keep up. That's all part of #1 (treatment to reduce pathogens).

Good thing that "a few boats in a large body of water" is mainly what the thread is about.

Yes cruisers are God's own chosen sailors, but NDZ regs address ALL boats.

Sure, and a lot of mothers (and fathers ) have qualms about letting their kids swim in municipal pools or using the bathrooms at Walmart. Or using such facilities themselves for that matter. Or not washing their hands after exchanging paper money, or yada, yada, yada . . . . What's your point here?

Mothers and fathers vote? They get a say?

BTW, L-E is to this thread as the Sheen Marine guy was to the lithium thread.

I don't think he was having as much fun as I am, since that one was mostly technical, with no pooprtunites opportunities for people to trot out their favourite anti-government or anti-environmental pet rants as arguments.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

1) "harmless"? yes it's somewhat treated - coliform and other pathogens have largely been killed. To only, roughly speaking, 5 times the pathogen levels of the discharge from municipal treatment.

2) that's it; beyond the maceration there's no other treatment to the waste.

But yes... a few boats in a large body of water... not a problem. Harmless.

So, if it's such a great idea, it should scale, no? Ok, let's imagine this seaside scenario (the Landing sandbar in Fort Walton Beach), and every MSD-equipped boat present directly discharges (mostly) disinfected, macerated waste after every flush.



Now, we know you've rationalized it away, and everybody pees when swiming right? Nonetheless... I think a bunch of mothers would have qualms about letting their kids wade and swim in it. kapeesh? as the great Exile might say.

I don’t see any ambulances lined up to take those people to the hospital or mothers dragging their kids away from the water.

You’ll need to come to terms with your irrational phobia.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I don’t see any ambulances lined up to take those people to the hospital or mothers dragging their kids away from the water.

You’ll need to come to terms with your irrational phobia.

Sorry about your reading issues. It was a hypothetical, asking you to consider the impact if all of those boats with MSDs only had the direct discharge type. Give it a try.

I do enjoy a good dump, really, but the pleasure is in elimination, not in sharing or exhibition. Try to accept that others might not share your indifference or affection for being around sewage.

[senormechanico]

Speaking of dumps, what do you do when on your little boat and the time is nigh?
I had assumed a Sandpiper 565 would be a 56 foot boat.
Was I ever mistaken !
It doesn't even look like you have the room for a porta potti, much less a holding tank.
If your boat WAS a 56 footer, your argument for a holding tank would make a lot more sense !



(sistership from image search)

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Speaking of dumps, what do you do when on your little boat and the time is nigh?

That's her. We have a type 3 MSD with a deck pumpout. Sufficient for 3 or 4 days out. Naturally we also 'use' marinas and restaurants when possible, which extends the range.

We also sail on other boats, and I have serviced some cruising boat systems, including installing/replacing heads and/or hoses. Might charter something this year.

A Dragonfly isn't very big inside either, right?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It was part of the last PDF I linked to a while back, where independent testing of various brands of treating MSDs was done. Also, consider that the stats published by the manufacturers naturally assume a top-condition, properly functioning system. Do all owners run them properly and maintain them? Or keep topping up with the right chemicals? There's going to be a big variance from all that, ranging from fully detoxified, to poo-in-a-blender.
(you have a look too, Señor M)

No chemicals in the most popular Type I, only electricity. If you're also not careful about fueling your boat or changing your engine oil & coolant you can also create an environmental hazard. Not sure the Lectrasan has a lot of problems zapping the s**t as advertised but could be wrong.

yes. Try to keep up. That's all part of #1 (treatment to reduce pathogens).

I was directly responding to your statement that "beyond the maceration there's no other treatment to the waste." Sounded to me like you continue to be confused by the difference between maceration & disinfection when it comes to onboard treatment systems.

Yes cruisers are God's own chosen sailors, but NDZ regs address ALL boats.

And all different sizes of inland waters. That's one of the problems. Or do you believe that discharge from cruise ships equates to what's being discussed here too?

Mothers and fathers vote? They get a say?

For themselves & their children -- yes. Dictating what others do? Not necessarily.

I don't think he was having as much fun as I am, since that one was mostly technical, with no pooprtunites opportunities for people to trot out their favourite anti-government or anti-environmental pet rants as arguments.

Can't imagine it's fun revealing your lack of knowledge about the underlying issues time & time again, citing far-fetched if not absurd analogies, to say nothing of alienating fellow sailors with completely unsupported accusations about not caring for the environment. But for some people it's all they've got I guess.

Nothing anti-environmental I've read yet, at least nothing that science says is harmful about discharge from onboard treatment systems by recreational vessels. But it seems it's more about labeling people & picking "sides" for you, so who needs actual evidence? Nothing generally anti-governmental either, except one particular set of regs which appear overbroad, unsupported by scientific evidence, with largely negative unintended consequences. That's called prescriptive too, but also arbitrary & capricious and so worthy of thoughtful challenge if not reconsideration. No reason to get all puffed up about it.

Thus far you've been the only poster who is shouting about larger political issues. Maybe that's because it's easier to resort to political stereotyping, but generally more difficult to assume peoples' good faith and make an effort to try and understand the underlying issues. But then facts often get in the way of comfortable ideology.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

[not a whole lot]

(we don't have an emoticon for maceration and disinfection)