Flag Etiquette Question

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

Carstenb "The Honor flag (which is not a house flag as Dave contends, but an honor flag) "


Because I am a nerd: am I right in thinking that a

House flag is the owners flag

Honour ( honor if your a yank) is a guest flag ?


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I guess I'm not sure. To me a House flag, could be an owners flag or a club flag or an association flag.


An honor flag is a flag you hoist to honor a guest you have on board. You honor him by hoisting his (her we don't want accusations of discrimination) national flag (which sometimes also may be the country's ensign), in the starboard spreader which is the 2nd highest place of honor on a yacht. The highest (on a bermuda rig) being on the stern.

Should you need the starboard spreader for anything else (signalling, "Q" flag or courtesy ensign) then the Honor flag retires to the port spreader.

Phew - is it clear or did I just confuse matters? LOL

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Weilbach have a Civil Jack?
The white border on a Civil Jack is wide, I can't see this on their website.

Weilbach's do seem to have got the UK courtesy flag wrong if that is what "Gæsteflag" means. The Brits seems very specific that the appropriate courtesy flag when in the UK is the Red Duster. Might be a good idea to write to Weilbach. We wouldn't want any wars commencing over this .

I shall leave it to you (or Dave) to write Weilbach and express your iration (is that a word?) over their sloppiness in this important matter.

This debate may be for nerds only - but actually it is interesting that customs apparently differ (in something I thought was enshrined in centuries old traditions).

Just to add a further note to the Danish flag versus yacht split (or notched) flag.

Our boat is not registered in the Danish registry of Ships (it is not necessary)

However, I carry an ownership certificate issued by the Danish Ocean Cruising Associaton (in case our ownership is ever brought into question in a foreign country).. An interesting note is that on the back is a copy of a letter issued by the Justice Ministry which notes that by Royal Decree, Danish Leisure boats are allowed to fly the split (or notched) Danish Flag.

This is because, anyone looking up the Danish flag (officials f.ex.) would see the rectangular flag as the official Danish Flag and that the Split (or notched) flag is reserved for royalty and the armed forces.

I believe Norway has the same practice.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

FWIW: Over the years, I have had as guests on board two admirals (one Aussie, one USN (and a three star at that)), and an Kiwi Captain and Naval Attache to Oz.

None of them seemed to give a **** about flags on a yacht. All they wanted was to drive the boat and to have a cold drink in their hands. I'm sure that on their own vessels things were different, but on a pleasure craft flag etiquette was not a high priority to them... or to me, beyond the basic ensign and courtesy flag when in foreign waters.

Now, a technical question: How do you "dip" your ensign for a warship when the bloody thing is either sewn to the leech of the mainsail or flying from a staff (sans halyards) at the stern? I've occasionally been tempted to do this act of respect, but couldn't work out how... and have wondered how anyone on the massive warship could possibly see my action if I did do it?

Jim

I'm pretty sure your experience of naval chaps is very common in the naval trade .

I concur with Carstenb re dipping your flag ex staff. However, if you sew the flag to your mainsail leach, you deserve whatever comes your way - shot over the bow or even through ya mains'l.

Originally Posted by hoppy

Is this correct flag etiquette?





Reading this thread helps me understand why yachting has an elitist reputation with the under-classes

What's an under-class

Originally Posted by carstenb

Jim,

I was taught that the correct way to do this is to take the flagstaff from its mount, raise it so the staff is at 90 degrees to ground (sea) level then dip it until the staff is parallel to the water (the flag now being at 90 degrees to the water)

The staff is then raised again to the perpendicular postion and reset in its mount.

I'm absolutely sure someone will have another method - but that is what I was taught.

+1

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The notion of using the UK as our penal colony does complete the circle nicely doesn't it? .......

Sorry for the thread drift but that is seriously funny

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I'm pretty sure your experience of naval chaps is very common in the naval trade .

I concur with Carstenb re dipping your flag ex staff. However, if you sew the flag to your mainsail leach, you deserve whatever comes your way - shot over the bow or even through ya mains'l.


What's an under-class


+1

I still think that boat is a bit small for that flag. Cheapskate - he should fork out for a bigger boat - what is the world coming to?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Our boat is not registered in the Danish registry of Ships (it is not necessary).

Carsten, you may run into problems in foreign waters with an unregistered vessel. Two things we are always asked for if papers are checked are passports and boat registration (insurance occasionally too, and in only in Croatia skipper certification, otherwise nothing so far)

You may run into lots of snags trying to explain that as a Danish vessel you don't need to be registered. It may save a hell of a lot of hassles getting registered.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

In my reading, I found several Aussie yacht clubs have a warrant to use the Blue Ensign or a defaced one. I've never yet seen this flown from a yacht and most of these clubs don't even 'fess up to this on their websites.

The Royal Geelong Yart Club flies an undefaced British blue ensign in their club grounds...management sez they have a warrant but I don't think anyone has ever seen it....
In the Pommy Merch the blue ensign is(was?) only flown on ships where the master and a certain number ( dunno what the number was) of officers were RNR ( Royal Navy Reserve). Was often seen on P&O, BI, and other upmarket company, ships.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

The Royal Geelong Yart Club flies an undefaced British blue ensign in their club grounds...management sez they have a warrant but I don't think anyone has ever seen it....

We have two royal yacht clubs close to home - Brighton and Melbourne. Both have warrants for the un-defaced Blue Ensign. Heaps of boats on the bay from these clubs. It is just that I have never once seen a yacht actually flying this flag.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Carsten, you may run into problems in foreign waters with an unregistered vessel. Two things we are always asked for if papers are checked are passports and boat registration (insurance occasionally too, and in only in Croatia skipper certification, otherwise nothing so far)

You may run into lots of snags trying to explain that as a Danish vessel you don't need to be registered. It may save a hell of a lot of hassles getting registered.

I realize this. But Registering a boat on the ships register is expensive and there are some downside to it also.

The Danish Ocean Cruising Association document has been accepted all over the world - they've never had an instance where it was rejected. So I'm reasonably sure I can get by with it. I also do happen to have a bill of sale, VAT paid documents, Insurance cards and enough other paperwork to sink the damn boat.

But I hear what you are saying.

[Hoofsmit]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I guess I'm not sure. To me a House flag, could be an owners flag or a club flag or an association flag.





An honor flag is a flag you hoist to honor a guest you have on board. You honor him by hoisting his (her we don't want accusations of discrimination) national flag (which sometimes also may be the country's ensign), in the starboard spreader which is the 2nd highest place of honor on a yacht. The highest (on a bermuda rig) being on the stern.



Should you need the starboard spreader for anything else (signalling, "Q" flag or courtesy ensign) then the Honor flag retires to the port spreader.



Phew - is it clear or did I just confuse matters? LOL

Then ......

SWL - The word "Gæsteflag" (guestflag) means Courtesy flag in Danish.





a "guest flag (honor flag) would be described as an "Æresflag"



Nop still confused ....... But I am a bit thick...... And a Cornishman !

I think I would just shake a guests hand and offer them a GnT ! If they are offended by my lack of Æresflag then I would refer them to this thread


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[goboatingnow]

The flag Institute Home | The Flag InstituteThe Flag Institute gives lots of guidance

Heres their comment on order of flags
"
General Precedence

The Royal Standards
The Union Flag
The national flag of England, Scotland, Wales, a Crown Dependency or a British Overseas Territory (within those countries, dependencies or territories)
The White Ensign of the Royal Navy [7]
The Ensign of the Royal Air Force [7]
The Blue and Red Ensigns [7]
The Civil Air Ensign [7]
The national flags of England, Scotland, Wales, the Crown Dependencies and the British Overseas Territories (when displayed elsewhere)
The national flags of other nations (in English alphabetical order as shown below)
The United Nations Flag
The Commonwealth Flag
The European Union Flag
The British Army Flag (Non-Ceremonial)
Flags of counties and metropolitan cities
Flags of other cities and towns
Banners of Arms (both personal and corporate)
House flags
"


Note the specific absence of the term Honour Flag or guest flag. Certainly around these parts the use of "honour" would mean the national flag of a country. This is distinct from flying one to "honour" a particular guest.

Hence I prefer the term House flags, to cover the broad generality of flags being used in a non specific way.

Also I have no issue with the Danish protocol. The starboard cross trees is the primary flag position, so any flag can be flown there as long as it does not displace a national flag being flown as a courtesy flag.

As to the UK courtesy flag, I can vouch that it is not and has never been the Union flag, in the national or Civil jack form.



dave

[Seaworthy Lass]

Well, I would have never said I was a flag nazi. We always fly the bare necessity (ensign and courtesy flag) and we have never raised and lowered them according to daylight hours, although we do carry respectable sizes and always in a respectable condition.

Must say though that if I were Greek and this Turkish boat with what is most likely a flag of convenience was visiting my country, I would be feeling mighty insulted.

Big ensign, although probably about right if the 1" per foot formula was being followed, but with a handkerchief size courtesy flag that they have hoisted upside down (very likely deliberately for a Turkish boat - I see this often). You can barely see the Greek flag on the starboard halyard in the attached photo.

By the way notice that they carry the US spirit to extremes, flying a US honour flag (ie guest flag) as well as a US ensign:

[Seaworthy Lass]

Most Turkish boats seen in Greece fly a US ensign.

Hoisting the Greek courtesy flag upside down is no error:

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The Flag and Etiquette Committee for the US Power Squadrons have put this forward (I presume it applies just for US registered vessels though):

Foreign Guest Flags
When a foreign guest is aboard, you may display the ensign of the guest's country from the bow staff or outboard port spreader. Should more than one such guest flag be appropriate, wear them on spreader halyards from port to starboard in the alphabetical order of their countries' names in the English language.

The US Power Squadron is a private organization. One would like to think they have their facts straight but they have no regulatory authority, even in the US.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

The US Power Squadron is a private organization. One would like to think they have their facts straight but they have no regulatory authority, even in the US.

As far as I am aware there are no legal requirements for courtesy or house or honour/guest flags anyway. They are simply protocol.