Impounded boats in Mexico

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I always wondered if Richard read this forum. If he did, he'd probably deny it. He is in sensationalizing mode right now. Maybe even payback for the inconvenience he put up with also. Maybe you were used as a pond. I wouldn't put it past him to make a point.
He tends not to debate people. If anyone writes into Latitude and he doesn't like what they say, he will only reply one scathing reply back to them. He probably knows he would be eaten alive on a forum.
That said, I'm glad you're back safe and sound and set the record straight.

Personally, I think this forum would benefit quite a bit from his presence, but doubt he has the time. It'd be nice if he picked up the gauntlet you've thrown down here, I get the impression he's a big boy and would hold his own just fine on a forum. They do keep multiple large cruising boats in different cruising grounds, and have always seemed quite knowledgeable on the subject. Probably more so than most here.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by minaret

Personally, I think this forum would benefit quite a bit from his presence, but doubt he has the time. It'd be nice if he picked up the gauntlet you've thrown down here, I get the impression he's a big boy and would hold his own just fine on a forum. They do keep multiple large cruising boats in different cruising grounds, and have always seemed quite knowledgeable on the subject. Probably more so than most here.

The forum probably would benefit by him and perhaps he would from it. As far as spare time, he seems to have spent enough taking up this issue. I'm glad he did. Although I might not agree with the way he has gone about it, it has helped to shine light on the situation.
That said, from Morgan Stones post, you can see that the story was embellished.,..and that is being kind. As far as a gauntlet...that's probably an embellishment too. It's always best to stick with what you know.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

It's always best to stick with what you know.

Does the press know that?

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Does the press know that?

shamefully not

[sww914]

Nearly every time that I've talked to Richard, he's been in quite a hurry, either rushing to his office or having just left his office. He works ALL THE TIME! If you haven't met him, he is a very very nice guy and the first things you catch is that he's very smart, very tall, very nice, and he works his ass off.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Latitude 38's boat has been released as well as others, so it sounds like my prediction of the end of the month to resolve this mess was correct. The TIP issue should quiet down now, but this is Mexico. Read the L38 news about the new regulation requiring captains licenses for all boats entering the country...

I've looked at Lat38, but I can't find any mention of requiring a captains license,

CAn you provide a specific link?

[BandB]

In this situation it became very personal to him, because it was very personal. It's one thing when you write about someone else being involved. Now, that being the case, it would be unfair to expect that not to impact what he wrote. As someone involved he was calm. But as a neutral reporter of facts he...well, he just wasn't that, couldn't be that. So, yes, perhaps he went a bit over the top but that is fully expected. I'm sure some of those actually involved though might say he didn't go far enough.

But he lost objectivity at some point by the very nature of his own personal involvement. Anyone would have.

[Celestialsailor]

...latest from Latitude...

More Impounded Boats "Liberated" in Mexico

February 5, 2014 – Ensenada, Mexico
"Jonathan Cervantes, the very helpful harbormaster at Cruise Port Marina in Ensenada, reports that all but about "nine or 10" of the 42 mostly foreign-owned boats that were impounded at his marina since late November have now been "liberated." He is unclear why the remaining boats — which include one dinghy — have not been released. He suspects it may be because the owners of those boats hired lawyers and/or went to the AGACE offices in Tijuana on their own, and thus weren't part of the main group of boats AGACE apparently decided to process first. Cervantes believes the remaining boats — including the dinghy — are "fine and will be released soon."
"The AGACE inspectors didn't know anything about boats when they arrived unannounced in November," Cervantes told Latitude in a telephone interview yesterday. "For example, they were looking for one specific type of TIP (Temporary Import Permit) form. When they were confronted with older ones that were still valid, they initially assumed they were fake."
Auditors were also confused when they inspected a now-New Zealand-owned boat that had been bought in California and still had the US documentation number in the hull. The New Zealand registration number didn't match the documentation number carved in the hull. Totally confused, the auditors decided to impound the boat and clarify things later. When in doubt, impound, was the AGACE rule. Alas, AGACE would take more than two months to clear up their doubts.
We know that it's hard for most readers to appreciate how poorly conceived and executed this AGACE audit was, but here is just another example from Cervantes of how weird it got. Some boat owners who went to the AGACE offices in Tijuana to try to get their boats freed were instructed to return to the United States by land and get an official document declaring that their boat was not stolen. Right! What US government agency is going to write an official document like that, particularly one supposedly confirming a negative? Eventually, some AGACE auditors were sent to the United States to get a short course in boat documentation.
"In the future," says Cervantes, "I hope AGACE will be more careful about the nautical tourism industry." Don't we all?
We also spoke with Fito Espinosa, the equally helpful harbormaster at Marina Coral in Ensenada. He confirmed that 35 of the impounded boats in his marina were released late last week, as reported in 'Lectronic, leaving another 12 still impounded. Like Cervantes, Espinosa believes that the boats still impounded are those whose owners went to Tijuana to try to get their boats freed, and thus got out of the main liberation process. He believes they will be released before too long.
Curiously, the boats were released from Marina Coral without the marina signing on as a Depositaria for the boats. It's our understanding that all the other marinas where boat have been released had to sign a paper saying they were Depositarias.
Espinosa confirmed that AGACE officials were confused by the different types of TIPS, as the original ones were for 20 years, newer ones were for 10 years, and even newer ones came with stickers — stickers to be put "on the window closest to the rear view mirror." Because of the confusion, Espinosa recommends that those with old TIPS cough up another $70 or so to get a newer one. Espinosa acknowledges that you can't get an updated TIP online, and either have to do it at a Mexican consulate in the States or at a Banjercito in Mexico. (We at Latitude know boat owners who have successfully done both. We also know boats with the old 20-year TIPs that have been cleared by AGACE, although this is not a given, as AGACE methods and policies have been wildly inconsistent.)
IMPORTANT! No matter if you apply for a new TIP online or a replacement TIP at a consulate or a Banjercito, Espinosa says you need to understand that when the form asks for the "serial number" of your boat, the form is NOT asking for your boat's documentation number, but for her HIN (Hull identification number). What to do if you boat is pre-1974 and didn't have a HIN number, or is a foreign boat that never had a HIN number? Contact the Coast Guard documentation office to get a document which reflects this. As for owners of non-U.S. documented boats with no HIN number, we don't know what to tell you.
Like all of the harbormasters in Mexico that Latitude has talked to, Cervantes was very complimentary of Latitude's coverage. "Latitude's explanation of what has been going on has been very precise, and I've used it to support my arguments in discussions with Mexican officials." We think calling our coverage "precise" is a bit of a stretch given the lack of explanations and the differing policies and procedures enacted by AGACE, but we think Latitude's coverage has been more factual, detailed and nuanced than what has been available elsewhere. We've also been tickled to hear harbormasters quote things we've said after they appeared in Reforma, the 'New York Times' of Mexico.
At this point it's unclear how many boats remain impounded in Mexico, but the number has been dwindling quickly. In addition, we're told that officials in Mexico are trying to come up with a monetary figure of how much damage has been done to nautical tourism. When they do, we suspect there will be strict guidelines established before AGACE attempts any future 'audits', if any. As such, we are beginning to believe there indeed will be a 21st Baja Ha-Ha rally starting in late October, and thus we have provisionally accepted a request for a skipper who has done many Ha-Ha's to be the ceremonial first entry for 2014. She says that her boat will be crewed by an anatomically correct all female crew! Details to come soon. Assuming there will be a 2014 Ha-Ha, entries will be accepted starting May 1.
But before we get too far ahead of ourselves, we want to assure every owner of a boat that's still impounded in Mexico — such as Rahul Singh's Challenger 50 Sea Dream — that we have not forgotten you. Please keep us updated of your situation".

[gordwedman]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I've looked at Lat38, but I can't find any mention of requiring a captains license,

CAn you provide a specific link?

January 31 Lectonic Latitude post titled "Heading in the Right Direction"

"Well, when the new navigation rules are published shortly, they will say that it’s mandatory to have a captain’s license to bring a boat into Mexico. While that’s what the new law will say, port captains will be sent a memo instructing them to ignore that part of the new law. We hope they get the memo."

We hope they get the memo, indeed.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by gordwedman

January 31 Lectonic Latitude post titled "Heading in the Right Direction"

"Well, when the new navigation rules are published shortly, they will say that it’s mandatory to have a captain’s license to bring a boat into Mexico. While that’s what the new law will say, port captains will be sent a memo instructing them to ignore that part of the new law. We hope they get the memo."

We hope they get the memo, indeed.

Indeed. Pray tell (if anyone knows) what constitutes a "captains license"? I have a Yachtmaster 1st Class (Yachtmaster Ocean), but do not have a "license". Danish law does not require a formal "license" for a 40 foot boat.

The Danish authorities do also not issue a International Certificate of Competency, since the Danish law works in the INternational Maritime Authority, not the UN.

[gordwedman]

In Canada we are required to have a Pleasure Craft Operator Card. It is a few hours study and then an exam. Pretty easy to get. It is sort of a license as you can be fined $250 if you are operating a boat and the Coast Guard or Harbor Patrol finds out you don't have one but it doesn't call you "Captain". I don't know how you get a "Captains" license in Canada. I don't think it is easy. I understand in the USA you can take a course of study, write an exam and get the so called " 6 Pack License" which lets you operate a boat for commercial purposes with a maximum of 6 paying passengers. Maybe this one calls you "Captain".

[Capt Phil]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

mrlee:

Sir, I believe you to be mistaken. In my own experience the people of Mexico with whom I interacted over an about 18 month period were honorable, generous and kind-hearted. Neither Jim nor I was ever asked for a bribe--EVER!

Fishermen returned missing dinghies to the cruisers. I new one guy who lost a wallet with $600.00 in it, and the finder went to a lot of trouble to find George via the ham nets, and returned it intact. Mexico is not a nation of thieves, and your post made it sound as if they all want only US dollars.

Sir, I think your disparagement of Mexican people in two posts, now, is inappropriate, and frankly, is disgusting to me. Writing "peace and God bless" at the end does not erase the insult. Please stop doing this.

Sincerely,

After some absence, I stumbled across this forum topic and while I didn't read the whole 14 pages of posts, Ann's experience mirrors mine in Mexico where we spent several years cruising in the 90's and early 2000's.
You have to go a long way to find a more honest, friendly, supportive community than the Mexican rural folks on the west coast. I've made deliveries over the years from most of the west coast ports and found the residents and the officials such a Port Captains, Migration, Marina managers, etc., gracious, polite and more than helpful in going out of their way to assist cruisers and delivery skippers who extend politeness and respect towards them.
Sounds like the pencil pushers from Mexico City have invaded Baja Sud and Norte to the detriment of these great little communities.
On more than one occasion, we hosted the Federale Marinari to snacks and drinks aboard when we were cruising. They left their guns on the aft deck and graciously accepted cervesas and food from us. Mostly they were young guys far away from their home village and their officers were as delighted to practice their english as we were our spanish.
It's been quite a few years since we were living aboard down there but I'd be surprised if things have changed all that much... Phil

[SV THIRD DAY]

The Cruiser Rumor Mill...the gift that keeps on giving.

With the TIP Disaster about behind us....now we need to start worrying and guessing about a Captain's License requirement that doesn't exist...Really?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

The Cruiser Rumor Mill...the gift that keeps on giving.

With the TIP Disaster about behind us....now we need to start worrying and guessing about a Captain's License requirement that doesn't exist...Really?

I would not yet. The statement was a prediction of what would be published followed by a prediction of how it would be ignored. That's too speculative to worry too much. Maybe it's from good sources but until it's published and can be read and interpreted, then I wouldn't worry about it. Will it even happen? Will it be all boats or commercial? What qualifies as a license? This may totally be a non issue or may be a huge one, but isn't yet anything.

[oregoncycle]

Hard to read the comments here when posters toss the word Gringo around
that is highly offensive and is the equivalent to the N word. I work and live in an area with many people from Mexico and have for many years but yet to hear it said without a ** before they say Gringo. (not directed at me ) I asked today before I posted this and the crew at work all agreed that if they were calling you a GRINGO they were saying it as an insult.

gringo (ˈɡrɪŋɡəʊ)
— n , pl -gos
a person from an English-speaking country: used as a derogatory term by Latin Americans