Left hanging by Pantaenius

[FoxIslander]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Precisely.

It is not fraud to use your address that is on every single document, your passport, all forms of ID, every single account and your credit report and everywhere all over the place while you are away on your boat. Ridiculous posts.

By the logic in this thread, anyone traveling on their boat does not have an address to use. Therefore you don’t qualify for a bank account, you don’t qualify for insurance, you don’t qualify for a driver’s license. You might as well just tie the anchor around your neck and throw it overboard. At least according to you guys.

So tell me. How do you get a bank account then? You are going to tell your bank that you are off on a boat and you have no address? Do you think that’s going to work? Or are you all committing bank fraud right now? Same thing.

Or are none of you actually doing anything and just staying home?

That is some pretty bad and completely incorrect advice you are giving to people who are actually traveling

Agree....all of these institutions require a "US residential mailing address, specifically not a business address. I've used my son's US address for years. Do I "LIVE" there? For perhaps a month per year. No issues. There is no requirement to own, rent, or live in said mailing address. My drivers license uses this address, voters card, multiple banks ( that send security codes to my Mxn phone number and replacement cards to my Mxn address.

[Pepijn]

Thanks TabbyCat for the offer. Will keep in mind. For now I have reached out to Preuss for their offer. (In spite of a warning up thread).

For the record I have travel health insurance via Preuss and explained our situation as liveaboards. They fully understood and were ok using my direct family address in Holland. That is why I returned to them in the first place since they have now set a precedence.

Also regarding other posts upthread. I have been a client with ABN Amro for 35 years and moved all around. All they needed was an update via there online portal without questions asked. (Mainly for tax purposes). Also there I have used my family’s address without issues. When I had to change my ATM pass recently they also understood and were happy to send the new pass to that address.

So far no cancellation received from Pantaenius. (Maybe they are following this thread ��).

Will continue to post new developments.

[christinekling]

Originally Posted by chrisr

hmmm...we are always updating insurance ideas and these guys seem quite interesting.

however cannot see anywhere who are the actual underwriters - are you aware at all who this is ?

also interesting is that they recommend registration in san marino as there is presently no insurance tax there. this bears out our own investigations which show the significant difference for insurance costs (for same policy / same vessel) between different european countries, due to different tax rates on insurance.

cheers,

Chris - It is the Triglav Group out of Croatia. I don't know what their rating is.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by christinekling

Chris - It is the Triglav Group out of Croatia. I don't know what their rating is.

wow...never heard of them, but seem a substantial 'real' insurance business. croatia is EU so hopefully fair laws & consumer rights prevail

bit smaller than our present underwriters (munich re) but worth keeping in mind when re-newal time comes around

thanks !

cheers,

[Sailor Sailor]

Many insurers make the application part of the contract. It is an elementary principle of contract construction that every word is given effect, “verba cum effectu sunt accipienda.” You cannot accept some words and ignore others. Also, the precise meaning of a word depends upon the context. A judge will construe a contract the way a reasonable person would, not the way someone trying to achieve a particular outcome would twist it.

If the insurance company just wanted a mailing address, it would express the question that way. You cannot just ignore the adjective “residential.” It has a meaning, a precise meaning in the context: it means the place where you live and consider your home. There is a ton of caselaw on the meaning of “residence.” It does not mean just a mailing address. There are a multitude of reasons why the insurance company would want to know where the insured lives, not where the insured’s brother, mother, sister or child lives, and where the boat is located. Look at your current dec page – the insurer is insuring you as the operator of a particular boat. Your location and the location of the boat are relevant to the risks being insured.

Just be honest in your application – tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Make a hand-written notation indicating that the address you provide is simply a mailing address, if that is the case, and inform the insurer in writing that you will be living on a boat travelling to various places for a period of X number of months. Sometimes, the insurance company does not investigate the application until a claim is reported.

The folks advising you to commit insurance fraud will not help you when the insurance company denies your claim. Your recourse then is to sue the company at your own expense to compel coverage. Most insurance companies hire pretty good lawyers to defend their interests, probably better than you can afford. It will cost you a lot of money, one way or another, win or lose. Will some of these posters front the money for your lawsuit?

If nothing else, seek advice of counsel, and get that advice in writing, so someone is on the hook, not some anonymous poster on a sailing forum.

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by PippaB

Not to be pedantic or anything, and it could be language, but

The quote does not say "your residential address" or "insured's residential address", it says "a permanent residential address". Nothing about to whom that address belongs, only that it must be the address of a residence. Insurer's like to play all kinds of games with words, and there is nothing wrong with it being a two-way street.

Surely this? There must be a UK address noted your part 1 certificate, your driving licence, UK bank accounts and the like; why can't you give them that one for insurance purposes?

[Chotu]

Insurance fraud!!! Lololol.

I’m going to ask the question one more time since nobody answered. If you are putting down a traveling boat as your address, what do you use for your bank? Are you committing bank fraud, or are you just not traveling and are more of a stay at home person? Because they don’t give accounts to people who are travelers who do not put down a physical address.

Please go ahead and answer. Anyone who thinks it’s insurance fraud to put a mailing address down, go ahead and answer the question. You won’t, because you’re wrong. Or you’re committing bank fraud and not wanting to post about it.

I can’t believe the levels of really bad advice being given on this forum just because people are scared of their own shadow as usual.

Here are some links to some marine insurance applications. Nowhere does it state that you have to put down a specific type of address. In fact, when they do specify a type of address, most of them specify a mailing address not a physical address. Wow. The ridiculousness of people here sometimes just amazes me. Start clicking on the links to see just how completely wrong you are.

https://www.bvia.com/forms/Acord-Watercraft-App.pdf

https://www.globalmarineinsurance.co...airboatapp.pdf

https://www.intactspecialty.com/site...pplication.pdf

https://www.bankersinsurance.net/wp-...-insurance.pdf

https://qsr-insurance.com/wp-content...pplication.pdf

https://www.nautilusinsurance.co.nz/...orm-31620b.pdf

That’s good for now. I could do this all day long and I have a bout 100 of these links. I also screenshotted the application process for progressive marine insurance.

All the intricate forum-lawyer type of details and never even looked at the actual applications. Lolol. Jeez

Stop trying to scare everyone. You are not helping anyone by terrifying then and giving them bad/incorrect advice.

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Are you committing bank fraud, or are you just not traveling and are more of a stay at home person?... You are not helping anyone by terrifying then and giving them bad/incorrect advice.

Yes, people are prosecuted for loan fraud all the time because of misrepresentations in the loan application.

Some people cannot get checking accounts for various reasons.

I am currently defending someone against a civil fraud charge in federal court. I have litigated numerous cases involving fraud.

You really do not have the education, experience, or credentials to give anyone advice about this kind of issue. You should know better.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

...There are a multitude of reasons why the insurance company would want to know where the insured lives, not where the insured’s brother, mother, sister or child lives, and where the boat is located. Look at your current dec page – the insurer is insuring you as the operator of a particular boat. Your location and the location of the boat are relevant to the risks being insured...

naturally the location of the risk ie vessel is relevant, but can you please explain why you think the insurance company finds your residential address relevant to their risk on marine insurance

and please don't go off on a tangent about how the boat might be parked in the driveway etc...you know we are talking about large sailing vessels, that are never kept at the residential address (unless living aboard)

what are these 'multitude of reasons' please ?

cheers,

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by chrisr

what are these 'multitude of reasons' please ?

cheers,

I will give you 2 reasons for starters:

1. It reveals whether the insured is a liveaboard; and,

2. Homeowners obtain insurance on vehicles for lower premiums than renters or nonhomeowners. Why? Because statistically they file fewer claims. Some states have outlawed the practice with respect to vehicle insurance. https://www.thezebra.com/resources/c...rs-vs-renters/

The reality is that homeowners are more stable, fiscally responsible, and tied to the community, less likely to take risks. There are some of the same reasons for pulling credit on people to judge the insurance risk. Bad credit shows bad judgment, bad habits, and greater risks for the insurer. Insurance is all about risk assessment.

Footloose and fancy-free folks out for adventure are not as good an insurance risk as stable, rooted folks in a community. The footloose, fancy-free folks may be more likely to have poor judgment or exhibit irresponsible behavior. Who would have thought that?

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

I will give you 2 reasons for starters:

1. It reveals whether the insured is a liveaboard; and,

2. Homeowners obtain insurance on vehicles for lower premiums than renters or nonhomeowners. Why? Because statistically they file fewer claims. Some states have outlawed the practice with respect to vehicle insurance. https://www.thezebra.com/resources/c...rs-vs-renters/

The reality is that homeowners are more stable, fiscally responsible, and tied to the community, less likely to take risks. There are some of the same reasons for pulling credit on people to judge the insurance risk. Bad credit shows bad judgment, bad habits, and greater risks for the insurer. Insurance is all about risk assessment.

Footloose and fancy-free folks out for adventure are not as good an insurance risk as stable, rooted folks in a community. The footloose, fancy-free folks may be more likely to have poor judgment or exhibit irresponsible behavior. Who would have thought that?

How would they know from your address if you are a homeowner? In the UK they usually ask on the application form if you are.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Yes, people are prosecuted for loan fraud all the time because of misrepresentations in the loan application.

Some people cannot get checking accounts for various reasons.

I am currently defending someone against a civil fraud charge in federal court. I have litigated numerous cases involving fraud.

You really do not have the education, experience, or credentials to give anyone advice about this kind of issue. You should know better.

I have a significantly higher education than a JD. Lol. You didn’t even read the application forms. They ask for a mailing address.

I linked to a dozen marine insurance applications above. You read none?

I can’t imagine you are winning many cases when you don’t even look at the application to begin with. Severe lack of attention to detail.

Maybe you are so advanced with such a great education and credentials that you leave all of the discovery work to the paralegals or folks that haven’t made partner yet? Too advanced to bother with the facts?

You should do a better job than that if you’re going to come parading through here saying people can’t use their mailing address (which the application SPECIFIES in most cases) to apply for insurance.

For shame

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

I will give you 2 reasons for starters:

1. It reveals whether the insured is a liveaboard; and,

2. Homeowners obtain insurance on vehicles for lower premiums than renters or nonhomeowners. Why? Because statistically they file fewer claims. Some states have outlawed the practice with respect to vehicle insurance. https://www.thezebra.com/resources/c...rs-vs-renters/

The reality is that homeowners are more stable, fiscally responsible, and tied to the community, less likely to take risks. There are some of the same reasons for pulling credit on people to judge the insurance risk. Bad credit shows bad judgment, bad habits, and greater risks for the insurer. Insurance is all about risk assessment.

Footloose and fancy-free folks out for adventure are not as good an insurance risk as stable, rooted folks in a community. The footloose, fancy-free folks may be more likely to have poor judgment or exhibit irresponsible behavior. Who would have thought that?

well 2 is hardly a multitude is it, but

1) better addressed by asking the specific question "how many nights do you plan to spend on the boat during the insured period"

2) surely you are not saying data from car insurance can be applied to risk assessment for marine insurance ?? surely no reasonable underwriter would be that dumb ??

many responsible people (including us) own multiple properties without living in them, and many bums live in homes they don't own (ie rent). having a residential address is a very poor measure of personal risk and an even worse measure of vessel risk.

in fact it's really just the opposite : many excellent seamen don't live in a dirt home, whereas i'll bet all capt catastrophes' do !

agree this doesn't prevent the ultra conservative insurance industry applying such, because it's easy and always been done that way...but this doesn't mean it's appropriate, or even smart

any others in the multitude ?

cheers,

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by chrisr

naturally the location of the risk ie vessel is relevant, but can you please explain why you think the insurance company finds your residential address relevant to their risk on marine insurance

and please don't go off on a tangent about how the boat might be parked in the driveway etc...you know we are talking about large sailing vessels, that are never kept at the residential address (unless living aboard)

what are these 'multitude of reasons' please ?

cheers,

In a word: JURISDICTION


Like for the Kansas City Royals or the Kansas City Chiefs, however (they might play in Missouri but LITERALLY they have KANSAS IN THEIR NAME), home state isn’t necessarily as simple as “pick where you want to say you’re from.”

Personal Jurisdiction -- The Four Basic Types

https://www.findlaw.com/litigation/f...on-can-be.html

Personal jurisdiction has four major categories in case law, and while three of them are fairly easy to understand, the fourth, "minimum contacts," can be difficult to determine:

Presence: Being served with a copy of the summons and complaint while physically present in the forum state in sufficient to give a court in that state jurisdiction over the person who was served. That means that even if you were only just passing through the state for a few minutes, if you are properly served, you can be sued in that state.

Domicile/Place of Business: Domicile or residence in a state is enough to give courts in that state jurisdiction over you. This also applies to wherever you establish your place of business. In practice, this means that even if the incident took place in another state or even in another country, you can always be sued in the state in which you have established residence or maintain your place of business.

Consent: Not surprisingly, you can simply consent to a court having personal jurisdiction over you. Consent comes in two basic forms, express and implied. Express consent can be given by voluntarily appearing before the court and submitting yourself to its jurisdiction. This means that even if a court otherwise didn't have power over you, by showing up, you can grant the court that power. Consent also can be implied, and one of the most common forms of implied consent is by driving on the roads of that state. Courts consider you to have given implied consent to the laws regulating roads, and thus if you have a car accident on the road in that state, a court has personal jurisdiction over you.

Minimum Contacts: A court can also have personal jurisdiction over you if you maintain certain "minimum contacts" with the state where a court resides.Minimum contacts is somewhat of a catchall where a court decides that you've had enough interaction with a state to justify having personal jurisdiction over you. Below is the basic test courts use to determine whether you've established minimum contacts with a state.

Jurisdiction over Property -- In Rem Jurisdiction

A final form or jurisdiction is called in rem jurisdiction, which gives a court jurisdiction over things (usually property) as opposed to people. This relates to personal jurisdiction because even if a court couldn't otherwise have personal jurisdiction over you, it may have jurisdiction over a piece of property you own. This means that if you own property in another state, even though you could not otherwise be sued there, the court does have jurisdiction over your property which in effect gives it power over you.

However, in rem jurisdiction is considerably more limited than personal jurisdiction, because the lawsuit generally has to concern the property itself and damages are often limited to the fair market value of the property. This means that in practice, buying a house in another state would grant a court jurisdiction to hear a dispute regarding that house, but not necessarily regarding other disputes that involve you.


The insurer and the broker / agent must be licensed to perform business within the jurisdiction and of course the Country / State court jurisdiction is also associated with both the location of the property and of the insured.


Also, there is the issue of residency.

https://insurancemarinenews.com/insu...rcraft-policy/

"The court found that the insurer was entitled to a declaration of non-coverage. The court held that in this case “primary residence” was an unambiguous phrase meaning “the main, principal place where the insured maintains a physical presence as an inhabitant” or “where the insured mainly physically resides.”


Reference Progressive:

https://www.progressive.com/answers/...oat-insurance/

Some insurance companies treat liveaboard boats differently than pleasure craft — the more time you spend on the boat, the greater an insurance risk you represent. Therefore, you will likely have higher rates as a result. However, it’s important to note that some insurers, including Progressive, do not offer insurance for liveaboard boats due to the associated risk involved. Be sure that the boat insurer you choose offers policies for liveaboard boats in addition to traditional boat insurance.

Do I need to tell insurer that I'm a liveaboard?
In the boating world, that's called a "sneak-aboard." It's generally easy for the harbormaster to tell what you're doing. In addition, lying on an insurance application or deceiving your insurer is a form of insurance fraud. Besides possible legal ramifications, failing to disclose information (or outright lying) to the insurance company can be grounds to deny a claim if you ever have to make one.


Mind that one can have dual residency - one not so obvious means:

Having cut ties to a previous state but failing to establish residency or domicile in another state. The previous state can retain jurisdiction associated with residency.


look up the term "domicile" and you will find that most (all?) states say that your domicile doesn't change if you leave the state, even for years, unless you establish a domicile in a new state. So, whether or not you consider yourself a resident or not, you may still be domiciled in whatever state you last lived in.


All rather similar to say the issuance of a valid driver's license. The license is only valid so long as the person retains residency within the jurisdiction of issuance. If residency moves out of state then the license becomes invalid.

https://www.dps.texas.gov/section/dr...s-and-id-cards

By way of example to Texas:

Residency Requirement Waived
The residency requirement will be waived for individuals who are authorized to use an alternative address under the following circumstances:

Individuals subject to the Address Confidentiality Program (ACP) administered by the Attorney General of Texas
Judges or spouses of judges
Active duty military personnel, their spouses, and dependents may provide a residency address outside of Texas
Individuals currently incarcerated in a Texas Department of Criminal Justice facility
Individuals who are minors in Department of Family Protective Services conservatorship
Individuals who are under 21 years of age in Department of Family Protective Services paid foster care
Applicants who are considered homeless youth as defined by 42 USC Section 11434a
NOTE: Peace officers using an alternative address must still verify their Texas residency.

[Pepijn]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Yup.. Long standing customer myself but have been refused a policy because I no longer have a UK address and reside in Portugal.
The change came in post Brexit.

What insurance do you have now? Or did you reflag to an EU country flag?

In the meantime I got some more info from Preuss. They also say that after Brexit the underwriters instructed not to insure UK flagged boats for EU residents. I am currently requesting Hayes and Parsons in the UK to see if they can insure us.
Alternatively, I am considering reflagging to Polish. Not ideal, but at least it gets us insured again.