Left hanging by Pantaenius

[Pepijn]

Just got an email from Pantaenius telling me that they will cancel the policy, because
1. Me, EU citizen, with a boat in the med
2. UK registered part 1
3. Not a permanent address (we are currently living aboard)

What to do? Any other insurance company?

QUOTE
I’m afraid we do not have good news for you. It is with regret that we must inform you that neither Pantaenius UK or our Monaco office are able to offer a quotation for MALAYA. Sadly without a permanent residential address we are unable to assist. Monaco would require proof of the Italian address being a current fiscal place of residency, and Pantaenius UK would require a bona fide UK permanent residential address.

We are sorry that this is not the answer you were hoping for. Our Polish office colleagues are in copy and will be in touch in due course with regard to policy cancelation.

We wish you luck and good sailing for the future.
UNQUOTE

[boatman61]

Yup.. Long standing customer myself but have been refused a policy because I no longer have a UK address and reside in Portugal.
The change came in post Brexit.

[Anders]

Try Pants in the country you are a citizen. Many UK insurance and banks can't do insurance or bank accounts with EU residents after Brexit.

[Pepijn]

Pantaenius UK was so nice to refer back to EU offices with the comment to find a workaround.

Unfortunately, I got a quick message from the Polish office (where I am currently registered because my initial idea was to register Polish flag) saying:

We have discussed your case along branch offices of Pantaenius in Poland, UK, Monaco and Hamburg and unfortunately we didn’t find a solution. In situation that your yacht is register in UK and you don’t have address in UK we can’t deal with your insurance in European Union countries nor in UK.
Because of our regulations we can not keep your insurance in Polish office for longer and we have to cancel your policy. Once again I'm really sorry that we can't help you in this situation. If you will decided to change the registration on the EU country we are here to help you.

Because I’m off for my holidays next week cancellation documents you will receive from my colleague.

[Chotu]

This is definitely Captain hindsight type of stuff, but the next time you go looking for insurance, have a permanent land address set up already.

Put all of your stuff under that same address. Wherever it may be.

Your ID, the boat registration, your insurance, your banking, it should all be one address.

Don’t talk to anybody about living aboard. Just get your insurance bound first. From there, look at changing the regions of coverage because you are “traveling.”

You have definitely blown it with this insurer especially by going so far and wide with this story inside their company. All the offices know about you now.

[Pepijn]

Yeah I know, its a grey line with underwriters what and what not to disclose. Not to have any issues in the future I thought be best to be honest with them. Obviously this is ‘too’ honest.

I hear you and will use an alternative address as my ‘permanent’ address…

[Pepijn]

Frankly speaking, it shouldn’t really matter very much. A policy has more to do about the area and eligibility of the claim. Should not depend on where the policy holder lives, nor where he is claiming his damages as long as it is within the applicable geographic area.

To me it is losing good people who wants to insure their boats in a normal, fair manner.

I am reaching out to Preuss to see if they can help us out here.

[chrisr]

we are australians living onboard our german flag vessel, in french polynesia. we were with preuss and did not enjoy the experience

now insured with munich re via a broker in NZ

certainly do NOT say anything about living aboard (we do, but have an address in australia which we call 'home')

we had the choice of UK, german, swedish or australian flag and which flag makes a significant difference to insurance cost. eg liability laws and VAT is different between flags.

for various complicated reasons we went with german flag although insurance cost would have been lower under swedish.

cheers,

[Sailor Sailor]

You should not misrepresent the facts of your situation in an insurance application. An insurer can deny coverage for fraud. Insurance companies now pull credit on prospective customers. A credit report shows your reported addresses and employments. With satellite or Google street photos, any address can be investigated to determine if it is legitimate. Sometimes, the investigation only begins with the reporting of a claim. Earlier on, if an underwriter discovers you are lying, you would likely be denied coverage on that basis. Even if you get a policy, how would you like to pay high premiums for an extended period of time only to discover that you actually have no coverage when you report a claim?

Insurers may reject liveaboards for good reasons as a greater risk they are not willing to cover. You should shop around and find one that will insure you on the actual facts, not misrepresentations. “Residence” has a particular legal meaning. It is more than just a chosen mailing address for the sake of convenience.

I have read the real problem for insurers these days are due to several related factors: (1) relatively inexperienced boaters (2) buying large, expensive craft, and (3) using financing. No one seems to want to admit to that while they complain about the unavailability of insurance. Global warming and more unsettled, unpredictable weather seems to be causing more catastrophic losses as well.

[Chotu]

Strongly disagree.

Your address is your address. When everything points to it, that’s your address.

Yes, the same address is on your credit report too.

I’ve had the same address for 20 years now, through all the ups and downs of bureaucratic life and do not live anywhere

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Strongly disagree.

Your address is your address. When everything points to it, that’s your address.

Yes, the same address is on your credit report too.

I’ve had the same address for 20 years now, through all the ups and downs of bureaucratic life and do not live anywhere

Here is the quote from Pantaenius: "...Sadly without a permanent residential address we are unable to assist."

A permanent residential address is more than a mailing address. If the application required only a mailing address, you might be right. "Residential" means where you reside, where you live, and where you intend to live for the indefinite future.

What you are advising is called insurance fraud.

[Sailor Sailor]

From the NAIC website:
“Issue: Insurance fraud occurs when an insurance company, agent, adjuster or consumer commits a deliberate deception in order to obtain an illegitimate gain. It can occur during the process of buying, using, selling, or underwriting insurance.

…Soft fraud, which is more common, occurs when a policyholder exaggerates on an otherwise legitimate claim, or intentionally omits or lies about information on an application to obtain a lower premium. Soft fraud is often considered a crime of opportunity.”

[PippaB]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Here is the quote from Pantaenius: "...Sadly without a permanent residential address we are unable to assist....

Not to be pedantic or anything, and it could be language, but

The quote does not say "your residential address" or "insured's residential address", it says "a permanent residential address". Nothing about to whom that address belongs, only that it must be the address of a residence. Insurer's like to play all kinds of games with words, and there is nothing wrong with it being a two-way street.

[SailingHarmonie]

In the USA marine insurance is sold on a "warranty" basis. The buyer warrants (legalese for "promises") that EVERYTHING in the application is true and that ALL information relevant to determining risk has been disclosed. Underwriters do not typically spend the time or effort to evaluate this information when it is submitted. Why should they bother?

When the application says "residential address" and you put down an address where you do NOT reside, would it pass the "giggle test" in court when you say you thought they wanted A residential address, not YOUR residential address? Could you actually, seriously, say that with a straight face? When the application says "Name" would ANY name do? It doesn't ask for YOUR name.

When a claim, especially a large one, is submitted, you can bet all information will be examined closely. If ANYTHING is not above board the claim will be denied and your policy canceled. They might be nice enough to refund the current year's premium... or not.

So if you play silly word games and think you are smarter than your insurance company because they have given you a policy, and they cash your checks, you are sadly mistaken. You will find out only when you most need it.

It's not just on the internet you can get this kind of terrible advice. We have had an unscrupulous broker advise us to lie on our application to make it easier to get an underwriter. He would get his commission, we would get screwed. We sent a copy of his email (yes, he was stupid enough to put it in writing!) to the underwriter.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by PippaB

Not to be pedantic or anything, and it could be language, but

The quote does not say "your residential address" or "insured's residential address", it says "a permanent residential address". Nothing about to whom that address belongs, only that it must be the address of a residence. Insurer's like to play all kinds of games with words, and there is nothing wrong with it being a two-way street.

Precisely.

It is not fraud to use your address that is on every single document, your passport, all forms of ID, every single account and your credit report and everywhere all over the place while you are away on your boat. Ridiculous posts.

By the logic in this thread, anyone traveling on their boat does not have an address to use. Therefore you don’t qualify for a bank account, you don’t qualify for insurance, you don’t qualify for a driver’s license. You might as well just tie the anchor around your neck and throw it overboard. At least according to you guys.

So tell me. How do you get a bank account then? You are going to tell your bank that you are off on a boat and you have no address? Do you think that’s going to work? Or are you all committing bank fraud right now? Same thing.

Or are none of you actually doing anything and just staying home?

That is some pretty bad and completely incorrect advice you are giving to people who are actually traveling