Maritime Law of Salvage ?

[marc2012]

Some states have no salvage laws.Yrs.ago ckd into salvaging a boat in ms & was told by the state could be prosecuted for theft.marc

[doug86]

Originally Posted by marc2012

Some states have no salvage laws.Yrs.ago ckd into salvaging a boat in ms & was told by the state could be prosecuted for theft.marc

Yes, that is right. Salvage in generally limited to waters that connect to international waters (ie: navigable waters). Bodies of water that are landlocked are controlled by the state that has the water, and US States haven't signed SALCON89, so they are exempt from that for the waters they "own".

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by doug86

that's funny, I don't see Lloyds of London as a signitory country on SALCON89...
I believe in a court of law, an international treaty will take precedence over what "Lloyds of London says"...

BTW, in the USA, no one is using Lloyd's Open Form anymore, as it requires disputes to be settled in London.

Andrew Anderson suggests you have to draw a distinction between salvage and a salvage operation or service (in his words).

"Indeed, the law of salvage is so well settled that it is sometimes said to be the jus gentium or the international law of the sea. Under this well settled doctrine of international law, salvage service is one which is rendered voluntarily to a vessel which needs assistance and which is designed to relieve her from some distress of danger either present or to be reasonably apprehended. As set forth by the U.S. Supreme Court:

Salvage is the compensation allowed to persons by whose voluntary assistance of a ship at sea or her cargo or both have been saved in whole or in part from impending sea peril, or in recovering such property from actual peril or loss, as in cases of ship wreck, derelict, or recapture."

[barnakiel]

A lot depends on where the boat is and who grabs her. There are the conventions but they have not been universally signed.

Antarctica belongs to nobody and everybody, yet Chilean navy claimed my friend's tent because he wanted to die 'on their territory'. He nearly did, without the tent ;-).

The same applies to the open waters of the ocean - they are supposed to be no-ones land but there are so many exceptions that we can no more speak of any rule ;-)

QUESTION: Is it ethically bad to strip an abandoned ship? I mean abandoned.

b.

[Chief Engineer]

Unfortunately most sailors know less than nothing about this......and as a result they are at the mercy of a tower.....

[Badsanta]

Interesting question B. Also consider this, if you haul a boat back to a port and it sinks or has a fuel leak, I would think you would be responsible for clean up. I would also think that if your boat broke louse and washed up on shore it is your responsibility to guard it till moved.

[Simes]

My Reply was not meant to be funny! Just informative. Not surprised that the USA does not use Lloyds Open Form, not many countries do. Lloyds Open Form is about the justification of salvage and the subsequent insurance payment.

Sorry if I offended you, but it takes all sorts

Simes

[boatman61]

My experience in this comes from working with a friend who had the contract for servicing/renewing mooring in Poole Harbour UK in the late 80's.
Sometimes in heavy weather, boats would tear free of their year round moorings and be washed/blown ashore(weak deck fittings, poorly tied on)... we often pulled them free, took them to our dock and notified the authorities.
We then charged the owner salvage fee's and storage ..... if he refused to pay a legal document could then be fastened to his mast declaring the situation and that unless terms were met and settled within a determined time scale the boat was forfeit and could be sold to recover costs.
Any attempt by the owner to remove the Notice or the Boat prior to Settlement was regarded as unlawful and he was subject to Prosecution.
Never charged more than 1/3rd the value of the vessel to my knowledge... depending on size.

[boatman61]

If your ever offered a tow... unless its someone you've "contracted" Seatow etc... always offer your line.. never accept theirs unless they declare no interest in Salvage...
Never tested this in Court.. and dont want to try...

[David_Old_Jersey]

My understanding (no links ) is that you can't claim automatic ownership of any vessel you "find" - you salvage it on behalf of the owner and then look to him / his insurer for recompense.

Nor does recompense for your efforts automatically equal the value of the vessel - also depends on the effort and cost expended as well as the danger that the vessel was in before you salvaged her. i.e, if you pluck her from the foaming breakers 10 yards from a cliff face off Cape Horn you will recover a higher value than if you'd simply rowed 50 yards from the dock into a sunny bay .

Of course plenty of scope to disagree between both parties - that's why they have Courts.

[doug86]

Originally Posted by boatman61

If your ever offered a tow... unless its someone you've "contracted" Seatow etc... always offer your line.. never accept theirs unless they declare no interest in Salvage...
Never tested this in Court.. and dont want to try...

In my 18 years as a professional marine assistance captain (and veteran of many, many salvage claims), I can assure you that this is an urban myth. A pure salvage contract is actually between the vessel (in rem) and the salvor, not the owner or anyone else who happens to either catch or toss a line. Please read the above linked Anderson article to learn more. Please cite any case in US Admiralty Law that supports this idea of "who takes/sends the line".

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by doug86

In my 18 years as a professional marine assistance captain (and veteran of many, many salvage claims), I can assure you that this is an urban myth. A pure salvage contract is actually between the vessel (in rem) and the salvor, not the owner or anyone else who happens to either catch or toss a line. Please read the above linked Anderson article to learn more. Please cite any case in US Admiralty Law that supports this idea of "who takes/sends the line".

Being a 'Brit' I aint got a clue... but then we drive on the correct side of the road and our nav marks are 'Normal'.....
Red to Port on entry.

[doug86]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Being a 'Brit' I aint got a clue... but then we drive on the correct side of the road and our nav marks are 'Normal'.....
Red to Port on entry.

boatman, your honesty about not having a clue on this subject is appreciated, but your previous post might have been mistaken by some as written by someone with a clue. Thanks for setting the record straight.

[boatman61]

I was quoting the "Urban Myth".... and my reluctance to test it....
What may be true in the US or UK is not always the case in other parts... there's some wierd 'Local Laws' out there as many find to their cost...
Hence my reference to Nav marks... home based assumptions can be costly.... could end up on the rocks...

[Chief Engineer]

www.answers.com/topic/salvage a longish read...this is near the bottom

If the owner of a vessel in peril comes to an agreement with a salvor beforehand, the salvor will have no further rights to salvage. To protect yourself from a possible salvage claim, therefore, ask your potential rescuer whether there will be a charge for the service, and if so, how much. Once you have agreed on a price, the rescue effort becomes nothing more than a contract to render help. This contract does not have to be written; a verbal agreement is legal and binding, but it would be wise to record your conversation or have one or more witnesses.Contrary to popular belief, your acceptance of a towline from another boat does not automatically entitle the other skipper to claim salvage. Neither can you be forced to accept a tow to safety, no matter how desperate the situation is.The ability to contribute to your own salvation may lessen the amount of any award made to a salvor, so don’t abandon your boat if it’s not necessary. Do all you can to help the salvor, including giving him your towline, if possible. The less you have to rely on his special skills, knowledge, and equipment, the weaker will be his claim in Admiralty Court. Salvage awards are usually based on the amount by which the salvor’s efforts improved the situation, and that amount must be significant.See also