Mis representing age of boat in sale????

[Pandor]

[QUOTE=I couldn't imagine a 1991 Model Year boat being built in 1989. I couldn't imagine anyone continuing to build a Model year 1989 boat out to 1991 either.

All that aside......you didn't look at the HIN? Paperwork mistakes happen.[/QUOTE]

No, the model year can not precede the build start year. Just like a car, the model year is either going to be the year the manufacture started or a year following. You can’t have a model year 89 built in 90 because that boat will be either a model year 90 or 91.

And as I said earlier, if a boat build is begun in late December 89, it will have an 89 build date. But if the yard spends 7 months building and outfitting it, it would go on sale in August 90 and would be a 91 model year by definition. No manufacturer is going to produce a model year for an August sale that is already a year behind. They time it correctly when they create the HIN.

[MicHughV]

Anybody buying a boat on Craigslist needs to know up front that it is a case of " buyers beware"
I can name numerous instances of buyers getting into shady deals on Craigslist. Numerous.

Besides the model year issue, you say little else about the boat, a row boat ?...fishing boat ??...sailboat....what ?

And where are you....on the ocean, inland ???

What about equipment, general condition, was the boat in the water, is it on a trailer...etc.....

And what did you end up paying for whatever it is that you bought ?

By and large, there is such a dearth of information coming from you, that to make any recommendation is pointless.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Cliffhanger

Boats, house and cars have different depreciation curves. Cars depreciate consistently until they are worth nothing. Or until they become rare classics and then the value rises again. Houses typically just gain in value at a rate that depends on maintenance, upgrades and design (and of course location). Boats are somewhere in between cars and houses. For the first 10 years or so they depreciate like a car. After that, it depends on maintenance and upgrades (and design). A well maintained 30 year old boat with a solid teak interior, new engine, new rigging, fully kitted out for cruising can be worth more than a 12 year old boat with all original equipment.
I am just pointing this out because whether your boat is 30 or 32 yrs old does much less to the value than how well it has been looked after.

Actually boats and cars are very similar in terms of depreciation. Only difference is the number of years and percent per year.
- Early on, depreciation is relatively fast.
- Mid-life it slows down.
- By 20yrs out, it's all about condition. If you find a 20yr old car in good condition, it will lose almost no value as it ages to 30yrs old...if you keep it in the same condition...pretty similar with boats. Likewise, if you let either go to rot, they may be worth nothing by 20yrs.

Houses really aren't much different...it's the land they are on that typically appreciates not the house. Go price up a house with a 1950s vintage kitchen, leaky roof and foundation issues...the price will typically be around the same as an empty plot of land in the same neighborhood (sometimes less if it's really bad because you have to factor in demolition of the old house).

[Paul Annapolis]

Really? How much difference could this make whether it is a 30 year old boat or a 31 year old boat or 32...? What was the asking price? What was the purchase price? Was this deliberate? Were there damages? Exact model years can but rarely have much of an impact on price, especially within a few years on an older boat. I just don't see how this really matters--as in "material".... ???

[TabbyCat]

Originally Posted by geoleo

I bought a boat that was advertised on Craigslist that it was a 1991 model. The seller also gave me a USCG Bill of Sale form (notarized by him) stating that it was a 1991 . He said he lost the current USCG Document form and had to order a replacement. Well I have found out since that the boat is actually a 1989 built boat. So I have a 2 year older boat than was represented by the seller. Shouldn't the seller pay me for this misrepresentation?

I have encountered many owners who didn't know the year of their boat. It is hard to imagine, but they frequently get the model year confused with the build year. So a boat with a hull ID ending in L900 is not a 2000 build, but rather a December 2019 build and a 00 model year. So I would not hold it against the seller, I can't imagine that they thought a year or two would make a difference to whether the boat sold. But do make sure that you have it correctly listed on your documentation / registration and insurance. Now that you know the correct year, if the year is not correct on the insurance, it could be construed as misrepresentation and be cause for a denial in the event of a claim.

[ShinyHappy]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Bill of sale "notarized" by the seller should have been a HUUUUGE red flag!

That was my thought too. The whole point of notarizing is to get more eyes on the signatories and their entry into the contract.

I can't imagine there is any real loss here, but self notarization might be something to investigate if there is a loss and you need to exclamation point it.

[catalac08]

My old cat I bought as 76 as that was when it was first bought however the build date is 75, which i found out later. I cannot see your 2 years date difference is anything to get concerned about with a 30 year old boat!

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by geoleo

I bought a boat that was advertised on Craigslist that it was a 1991 model. The seller also gave me a USCG Bill of Sale form (notarized by him) stating that it was a 1991 . He said he lost the current USCG Document form and had to order a replacement. Well I have found out since that the boat is actually a 1989 built boat. So I have a 2 year older boat than was represented by the seller. Shouldn't the seller pay me for this misrepresentation?

If a US built vessel, since 72 the HIN would be required and also carry the build year stamped into it. If that matches, then you have the correct build year..

[David Mathis]

It appears that the model year may have been misrepresented, but maybe not. You should be aware that the HIN is molded into the hull to indicate the year the hull is manufactured. This may not be the model year. Boat manufacturer X may build a dozen hulls then store them until needed. Four may be completed that year so the year of manufacture and model year would be the same. The next year, a few changes are made for the three boats of this model using the hull that had been stored. The hull year and model year are now a year apart. The next year, a new model is released with a fly bridge and a few other options. The manufacture year and model year are two years apart, The next year, the remainder of the hulls are completed with a redesigned interior and a larger swim platform. These have a three year difference between the hull year and model year. It's rare but it can happen.

[SaltyMetals]

Very interesting discussion. I refer particularly to Pandor (#3) and Shrew (#27) regarding the last few digits of the HIN. Can a boat be built (start date or finish date??) and then Certified in the same month? The last 4 digits of the HIN on my 43ft Jeanneau are "A404" which means construction in Jan 2004 and Certification in Jan 2004. I always imagined that construction would have been sometime at the end of 2003 (for example dates inside the winches are 2003) and then Certified/Splashed in Jan 2004.
Andrew

[jordanbettis]

1989 was the year of the S&L crisis and the Black Friday market correction. I think your boat was probably started in 1989 but then it sat in the yard either incomplete or complete but unsold for the next two years.


Remember that boats are not cars. Even "production" boats are handbuilt usually for a particular buyer. In this aspect they're more like houses.


It's easy to back the year out of the HIN so if you didn't do that before purchase it's on you. Boat buying is very caveat emptor. Brokers are some of the worst liars I've ever met. You gotta do a lot of your own homework. Unless they gave you a fraudulent forged HIN then I doubt you're going to have a case.

[Mondonico]

My two cents (and we do not have a lawyer-client relationship)... Materiality is usually the key in misrepresentation cases. If there was no significant difference between the model year 1989 and 1991, then its not a claim worth pursuing. If there WAS some significantly different production or build technique (for example) between the two years, that you thought you were getting, then I would contact a broker/surveyor to determine if there is a significant difference in market value, all things otherwise being equal. Buyer beware yes, but if the sales docs say one thing and you got something different, its material misrepresentation (I.e. fraud).

Do yourself a favor, don't listen to non-lawyers who wax on about what they saw on Judge Judy, etc. and speak with an actual experienced lawyer. It does not have to be an admiralty lawyer (even though I am one).

Jeff Mirsepasy

[Pandor]

Originally Posted by SaltyMetals

Very interesting discussion. I refer particularly to Pandor (#3) and Shrew (#27) regarding the last few digits of the HIN. Can a boat be built (start date or finish date??) and then Certified in the same month? The last 4 digits of the HIN on my 43ft Jeanneau are "A404" which means construction in Jan 2004 and Certification in Jan 2004. I always imagined that construction would have been sometime at the end of 2003 (for example dates inside the winches are 2003) and then Certified/Splashed in Jan 2004.
Andrew

You are slightly confused regarding the last 4 digits of the HIN. The regulations are spelled out in 33 CFR 181.25 as follows:

(c) Characters nine and ten must indicate the month and year of certification when a date of certification is required. In all other cases characters nine and ten must indicate the date of manufacture. The date indicated can be no earlier than the date construction or assembly began and no later than the date the boat leaves the place of manufacture or assembly or is imported into the United States for the purposes of sale. Character nine must be indicated using letters of the English alphabet. The first month of the year, January, must be designated by the letter “A”, the second month, February, by the letter “B”, and so on until the last month of the year, December. Character ten must be the last digit of the year of manufacture or certification and must be an Arabic numeral.

(d) Characters eleven and twelve must indicate the model year using Arabic numerals for the last two numbers of the model year such as “82” for 1982 and “83” for 1983.

The date of certification is the date the manufacturer certifies that the boat meets all the rules that the particular boat has to meet. What this means is: a manufacturer is required to certify, by placing a label on the boat, that it complies with all the regulations that apply to that boat. The label says: The boat complies with US Coast Guard Safety Standards in effect on the date of certification.
This label is usually on the capacity label, for boats that have one, or at or near the helm station as a separate label, for boats not required to have a capacity label. The date of certification can be anytime between when the boat was begun until the date it leaves the place of build. The law says the date of certification, and also the HIN, must be on the boat before it is sold, offered for sale or entered into interstate commerce.

So in the case of your Jeanneau, A404 just means the date of manufacture (or certification) was January 2004 and it was a model year 2004 (intended for sale in 2004 prior to August of that year. )

[boatpoker]

So Geoleo pops up here with a story about the age of his boat, won't tell anyone how he arrived at the conclusion that boat was older than advertised, won't tell us what his HIN is and has not returned to the thread he started.

I'm all out of troll food.

[away again]

Originally Posted by geoleo

I bought a boat that was advertised on Craigslist...

Enough said.

Somebody please start a thread on HIN as this is something that is helpful and should be recorded for future and easy reference for anyone buying a vessel.