Near collision - two navy ships - San Diego

[Montanan]

Close call in San Diego - USS Harpers Ferry (LSD 49) Harpers Ferry-class dock landing ship leaving USS Momsen (DDG 92) is inbound - November 29, 2022

Each ship takes evasive maneuvers towards their port to avoid collision.

Reference article and San Diego web cam video linked below.

Titled: Warship Chicken.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/two-navy-...013845517.html

[goboatingnow]

Again bears out the U.K. mca teccomendations not to negotiate passing by vhf

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Again bears out the U.K. mca teccomendations not to negotiate passing by vhf

Without vhf, the dance would have contined.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Without vhf, the dance would have contined.

Tbd judges and the subsequent recommendation in that collision around negotiating passing by vhf pointed out thd issues errors thd mcAproclamation was quite definite as a result

[Bowdrie]

That's why you need many radar units, each additional unit further reduces the chance of a collision.
As a retired Navy officer told me. (Tongue in cheek,) "Two radars mean you only get in half as many collisions".

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Again bears out the U.K. mca teccomendations not to negotiate passing by vhf

Don't think that's really applicable in this situation.

A couple things to remember - the dredged channel is quite narrow, maybe a little more than 200 yards wide throughout; and the current can be quite strong, with some challenging eddies at certain points.

While I'm reasonably certain that San Diego is Inland Waters as far as the Rules are concerned, I don't know if the "downbound rule" applies there. In that sub-part of Rule 9, the vessel going with the current makes the call on how to pass an upbound vessel; making a green-to-green passing is perfectly valid and legal.

There are also Navy and NATO rules that give priority to the senior ship. Usually the larger, clumsier ships - tankers, carriers, LHDs, etc have senior captains, which allows a "rule of tonnage" if you will, where they can simply order the junior to avoid them.

In this case, it appears to me that HF misjudged the turn, got caught in a eddy perhaps, and ended up inside and chose to continue to the inside, informing Mn. Mn has the manoeuvrability to get out of the way without any issue.

Probably could have planned the passing better, given the limitations in that area, but not the catastrophe that it's being made out to be in social media. My 2 cents.

[rslifkin]

The downbound rule is only on the Western Rivers. So not applicable in San Diego.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Close call in San Diego - USS Harpers Ferry (LSD 49) Harpers Ferry-class dock landing ship leaving USS Momsen (DDG 92) is inbound - November 29, 2022

Each ship takes evasive maneuvers towards their port to avoid collision.

Reference article and San Diego web cam video linked below.

Titled: Warship Chicken.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/two-navy-...013845517.html

I don't think an alteration to starboard would have done anybody any good, do you?

Problem was caused by the faster moving ship altering down to stbd on top of the Harper Ferry.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The downbound rule is only on the Western Rivers. So not applicable in San Diego.

Maybe you should read the rule fully:

a power-driven vessel operating in a narrow channel or fairway on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary,

"Waters specified by the Secretary" means you have to look at other documents to see if they apply. I couldn't be bothered to look and it's been 2 decades since I've gone into San Diego, so even if my memory was that good, doesn't mean the rule hasn't changed.

[JPA Cate]

"Turn to port; see you in port."

But they both needed to. *Stuff* happens.

Ann

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Maybe you should read the rule fully:

"Waters specified by the Secretary" means you have to look at other documents to see if they apply. I couldn't be bothered to look and it's been 2 decades since I've gone into San Diego, so even if my memory was that good, doesn't mean the rule hasn't changed.

Good catch, looks like my memory failed me on this one.

[Scorpius]

It strikes me that a burst of power by the destroyer once they were into their turn would have helped increase clearance - and turning to starboard to "kick" the stern away.

But maybe being in a narrow channel precluded any of that.


In that situation, trying to pass red to red would appear to have been disastrous. Given the situation they were in (not that they probably should have been in it), each going to port (passing green to green) was the right thing to do.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Maybe you should read the rule fully:

"Waters specified by the Secretary" means you have to look at other documents to see if they apply. I couldn't be bothered to look and it's been 2 decades since I've gone into San Diego, so even if my memory was that good, doesn't mean the rule hasn't changed.

“ Waters specified by the Secretary / defined in 33 CFR 89.25. , means the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, and the following specified waters: (a) Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway, (b) Tombigbee River, (c) Black Warrior River, (d) Alabama River, (e) Coosa River, (f) Mobile River above the Cochrane Bridge at St Louis Point, (g) Flint River, (h) Chattahoochee River, and, (i) the Apalachicola River above its confluence with the Jackson River.”

Is this the right waters or am I looking at the wrong thing? Is San Diego part of that?

[skipperpete]

I’d be interested to know the designation of the navigation buoy in the video, it might have had some significance in the decision to alter course to Port not stbd. Applying a “burst of power” in a risk of collision situation is a poor choice of “actions to avoid collision” and in the cases of 3 previous destroyer collisions, speed management resulted in less than desirable outcomes.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

“ Waters specified by the Secretary / defined in 33 CFR 89.25. , means the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, and the following specified waters: (a) Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway, (b) Tombigbee River, (c) Black Warrior River, (d) Alabama River, (e) Coosa River, (f) Mobile River above the Cochrane Bridge at St Louis Point, (g) Flint River, (h) Chattahoochee River, and, (i) the Apalachicola River above its confluence with the Jackson River.”

Is this the right waters or am I looking at the wrong thing? Is San Diego part of that?

Not knowing where most of those waters are, I can't confirm it, but it doesn't look likely that it applies to San Diego Harbor, if that is a complete list. As I said previously, I didn't know if it applied or not. I don't know if there are local harbor regs that apply either.