Poll for Professional Masters and Mates (over 500 tonnes)

[Lodesman]

So the other poll went off the rails. Same question but specifically for the pro's to answer. As before, only those who make or made their living as a Master or Mate of ocean-going commercial/naval vessels.

The other poll here for reference: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3342077

[Pandor]

Ya, I avoided the other thread after seeing the complete idiocy spewed by many in the other recent threads. As a professional mariner, I’ll provide my answer here. Your poll is stupid. There is never a black or white situation as your questions suggest. All vessels are required to follow the COLREGS and therefore that is what we hope for (although do not always expect when it comes to recreational vessels). The rules also require any vessel to “get out of the way” if required to avoid a collision. Finally, Rule 2 is fundamental and if you understand it you will realize why your poll is stupid.

Never have I read a collision report where some portion of blame wasn’t allotted to both vessels.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Pandor

Finally, Rule 2 is fundamental and if you understand it you will realize why your poll is stupid.

I understand Rule 2, but don't understand why you find the poll stupid. Care to explain what you mean?

[Pandor]

Sorry, I phrased my previous post rather poorly. I think all professionals should respect the COLREGS. But that doesn’t mean recreational sailboats should interpret Rule 18 and 17 as a reason to not consider limitations of the vessels involved (especially large ships). So if I were to answer the pole, it would certainly depend on the particular rules under consideration at the time. But the worse thing for either vessel would be to expect another vessel to “just stay out of the way” contrary to the rules. Now I wouldn’t mind at all if you stayed out of the way within the confines of the rule. But I will also understand that even a sailboat needs to insist on their rights under COLREGS given their own limitations.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Pandor

Now I wouldn’t mind at all if you stayed out of the way within the confines of the rule. But I will also understand that even a sailboat needs to insist on their rights under COLREGS given their own limitations.

The gist of the question it just that - "within the confines of the rule." If the rules would have the small boat be the stand-on vessel, would you prefer to have them stand on and let you do the avoiding; or for them to just get out of the way? I don't see what's so difficult about that.

Of course when you say something like "insist on their rights under Colregs" one has to wonder how well you know the Rules.

[Pelagic]

I think most professional mariners who were drilled during Oral examinations or put thru a formal simulator collision avoidance test have by that time learned the Rules verbatim.
So cannot imagine any professional not choosing the first option

[Tingum]

Poll really does not make sense. Am I the master of a large commercial vessel or am I the operator of a pleasure craft? If the master of a commercial vessel I will follow the colleges up until the point that it endangers my vessel. If I. Am the operator of a pleasure craft I will get the hell out of the way! And in doing so I will communicate with the larger vessel. I can’t count the times that some idiot in a sail boat has cut across my bow. For all the pleasure craft operators who are standing by their rights remember, we can’t stop or turn on a dime. So get the F out of the way.

[Pelagic]

From studying a number of civil cases involving collisions between commercial craft and pleasure boats, it becomes apparent that the licensed WK is normally held at a higher standard than the yacht operator.

Both in knowledge of the rules and situational awareness

So then, how can Rule 2 be interpreted fairly by the Courts?

...and does that then influence how some commercial operators try to promote a
...just stay out of the way... mindset by intimidating actions?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Tingum

Poll really does not make sense. Am I the master of a large commercial vessel or am I the operator of a pleasure craft? If the master of a commercial vessel I will follow the colleges up until the point that it endangers my vessel. If I. Am the operator of a pleasure craft I will get the hell out of the way! And in doing so I will communicate with the larger vessel. I can’t count the times that some idiot in a sail boat has cut across my bow. For all the pleasure craft operators who are standing by their rights remember, we can’t stop or turn on a dime. So get the F out of the way.

The poll is asking YOU as the operator of a commercial ship

What do you want theYacht Operator to do?

Thats quite clear and the key question to me becomes
Will a newbie yacht operator, ignorant of COLREGS stay out of the way in a manner that does not create mayhem for other vessels ?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Tingum

I can’t count the times that some idiot in a sail boat has cut across my bow. For all the pleasure craft operators who are standing by their rights remember, we can’t stop or turn on a dime. So get the F out of the way.

I have friends that went to Mass Maritime and NY Maritime. One is first mate and I forget the other’s rank.

These people work on the bridges of very large ships, traveling the world. They are gone for weeks and months then get time off to relax at home between trips.

They said exactly as Tingum did, as I quoted above.

One also added that they “do not pay attention to 1000 little boats on AIS as they enter a harbor or approach “

Though I can’t vote, I want to add this to the thread.

I think in the interest of safety in harbors and approaches, it’s important for people on the forum to know this.

[Lodesman]

Would SamH please comment on why he wants small vessels to not follow colregs and just get out of the way?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Tingum

Poll really does not make sense. Am I the master of a large commercial vessel or am I the operator of a pleasure craft? If the master of a commercial vessel I will follow the colleges up until the point that it endangers my vessel. If I. Am the operator of a pleasure craft I will get the hell out of the way! And in doing so I will communicate with the larger vessel. I can’t count the times that some idiot in a sail boat has cut across my bow. For all the pleasure craft operators who are standing by their rights remember, we can’t stop or turn on a dime. So get the F out of the way.

Didn't think this was that challenging. Poll is specifically for masters/mates while operating large commercial vessels in open waters where you would be the "give way" vessel in a risk of collision situation with a small recreational vessel - would you prefer for the small vessel to (a) follow the rules, and let you do the avoiding?; or (b) have them just get out of your way?

When you say these sailboats are cutting across your bow, it sounds as if they are not following colregs, and this isn't really the focus of the poll. Can you describe the circumstances of these situations?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I think in the interest of safety in harbors and approaches, it’s important for people on the forum to know this.

In harbours and their approaches, other rules (9, 10, 18 CBD) are usually in effect that change the dynamic such that the small vessel has to do the avoiding - presumably most professional mariners know when these situations exist. I'm specifically looking at "open water" situations - overtaking, crossing/end-on with PDVs, or encountering sailboats - what is the preference of the pro's. My own opinion (vessels from 70 to 20,000 tonnes displacement - worldwide) is that if I'm the give way vessel, I want the small vessel to stand-on and allow me to avoid them. Discussions with dozens of others have found that to be the commonly-held opinion.

I'm honestly curious if there are any big ship drivers that would advocate otherwise, and would like to hear their opinions on the subject.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Poll is specifically for masters/mates while operating large commercial vessels in open waters .......

Like a moth to the flame.... here I am again....

The poll question does not mention 'open waters'.

I can't respond to the poll as such as no mention is made here or in the previous thread of 'common sense'.

Open waters the rules apply..... it is what I may call 'pilotage waters' ie channels and stuff where things may be different.

And the 'in between' bit? So I am in 'open waters' making a lee for the pilot boat which is still a few miles away.... light ship.... bit of a breeze.... yacht on a steady bearing.... what then? The 'first rule of common sense' maybe?

Ping, Master(FG) London, 1971. 42 years in the day job.... retired for 15.

PS.... Once when swinging- with a tug on a headline - in the river at Cairns, NQ, we had a boat pass under the bow between us and the tug..... you just can't fix stupid.

[Pandor]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

In harbours and their approaches, other rules (9, 10, 18 CBD) are usually in effect that change the dynamic such that the small vessel has to do the avoiding - presumably most professional mariners know when these situations exist.

Presumably, but plenty of recreational sailors don't understand these rules. It is the fact that some sailors don't understand the rules that makes it very hard to operate a larger commercial vessel around any recreational vessel. You just don't know what to expect.

I'm specifically looking at "open water" situations - overtaking, crossing/end-on with PDVs, or encountering sailboats - what is the preference of the pro's.

Your poll did not specify "open water." So you are changing the questions.

My own opinion (vessels from 70 to 20,000 tonnes displacement - worldwide) is that if I'm the give way vessel, I want the small vessel to stand-on and allow me to avoid them.

What kind of license do you hold? I've never experienced any merchant mariners that describe the size of our ships in displacement. That is usually the Navy or the Coast Guard.

Discussions with dozens of others have found that to be the commonly-held opinion.

Well, then you already have the answer. How may large ticketed mariners do you think actually are members of this forum anyway?

I'm honestly curious if there are any big ship drivers that would advocate otherwise, and would like to hear their opinions on the subject.