Port and starboard bow lights

[Seamule65]

Originally Posted by zeehag

i believe my avatar has the size of my formosa 41.

btw, the colregs list MINIMUM requirement.

i never found MINIMUM REQUIREMENT to be any where near adequate.

Your boat is between 20 and 12 meters in length. All of your lights must have a visible range of 2 miles. Refer to Rule 22 (visibility of lights).....The term "Masthead" (Masthead lights) does not apply to sailboats. The rules in regards to sailboat ONLY references "Masts"...
So even if you used the accepted combined lights on the "Mast" or the "Red over Green" lights (Much more visible from a ship as I am a Ship's Master) the visibility is 2 miles for you vessel.....On ships, commonly, for our 2 mile lights we use a 60 watt lightbulb....
If you use Perko lights, and you are not satisfied with the range of visibility, put a brighter bulb in. The objective of the lights are so you can be seen by another vessel at sea.
Better brighter than not bright enough.....
Cheers, Smitty

[sailjumanji]

Standard nav light setup on my catamaran is bow lights on the pulpits, and stern light on the rear arch. I also added a Stecktronics combo nav/anchor/strobe at the top of the mast. On inshore waters, icw and bays, I use the lower set of lights. Offshore I use the masthead light. Of course never both sets at same time. My experience is that waves offshore obscure hull-level nav lights. On the icw, captains tend to be looking more at eye level, which is why I use the pulpit level lights there.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Seamule65

Your boat is between 20 and 12 meters in length. All of your lights must have a visible range of 2 miles. Refer to Rule 22 (visibility of lights).....The term "Masthead" (Masthead lights) does not apply to sailboats. The rules in regards to sailboat ONLY references "Masts"...
So even if you used the accepted combined lights on the "Mast" or the "Red over Green" lights (Much more visible from a ship as I am a Ship's Master) the visibility is 2 miles for you vessel.....On ships, commonly, for our 2 mile lights we use a 60 watt lightbulb....
If you use Perko lights, and you are not satisfied with the range of visibility, put a brighter bulb in. The objective of the lights are so you can be seen by another vessel at sea.
Better brighter than not bright enough.....
Cheers, Smitty

AS i stated--masthead lights in sailboats is not mandated in colregs nor anywhere else. it was yotties wise idea in 1988-1990 to add masthead lighting then brag to dockmates around the bbq with mucho tequila and beer..funny how the ones with masthead lights in 1990 were dock queens sitting in marina-went to catalina when they could motivate out of drunken stupid to relocate with all their dockmates to the island for more drunken disorder.
the masthead lights in colregs are for ships and large boats using a mast for the lights-- that translates directly to a fancy stick with a light on top. the stick is generally a standard length.
my traditional lighting is , as i related, visible to horizon.
i donot use masthead lights.
minimum requirement was meant to build on not maintain.
it is always better to be in overkill mode.

[Jim Cate]

AS i stated--masthead lights in sailboats is not mandated in colregs nor anywhere else. it was yotties wise idea in 1988-1990 to add masthead lighting then brag to dockmates around the bbq with mucho tequila and beer..funny how the ones with masthead lights in 1990 were dock queens sitting in marina-went to catalina when they could motivate out of drunken stupid to relocate with all their dockmates to the island for more drunken disorder.

Ahh, come on Zee...

I spend a lot of time in anchorages that require sailing a long way to reach. There ain't many dock queens there, but virtually 100% at least have tri-colour lamps at their masthead. Doubtless some of their skippers are drunks, but really, nearly all cruisers who spend time at sea have such lights. Your condemnation is a bit theatrical IMO.

We have been advised here on CF that these tricolour lights are a bit confusing to watchstanders on the bridge of merchant vessels. Their height makes them look as if they were further away than was true, and this ain't a good thing so they wish we would use deck level lights... I understand the problem.

On the other hand, for those of us who stand watch much nearer to sea level, deck lights are often obscured by seas and by sails on the lit vessel. In this case, the masthead light (oops, sorry, the light at t he top of the mast) is much easier to see.

So, I guess the decision on lighting depends upon just who you want to have the best chance of seeing you: ships or small craft. the answer may depend on where you are sailing, what sort of traffic is common, and to some degree, whether you have AIS in service. With the latter, I think I worry more about smaller vessels, those that don't have AIS and who are low to t he water, than big ships with high bridges and who are mandated to have AIS. This conundrum is thought provoking, and I'm not really sure of the best solution.

Perhaps I've misconstrued your rant about the 90s and drunks at Catalina, and you were not really saying that those of us who today use tricolour mast head lights were just as bad as them.. but if that wasn't the implication, what then was it? We spend a fair amount of time at sea in the dark... perhaps even more than you do... and mostly do display the tricolour. We run a dry ship at sea, and I've not been to Catalina for about 30 years, so I'm unsure of my status! What's a skipper to do?

Jim

[boatman61]

LOL... been on a small boat (22ft) in a F6-7 off Ushant at night trying to get round the corner into the Biscay and the ship I was chatting with could not see me either on his radar nor visually with my lights (labelled 2nm range on packaging) till I was about 500metres away.. and before you lot start bellowing AIS.. AIS.. this was pre small boat AIS..
It be dark n dodgy out there.. and I was singlehanding.. keeping watch even..

[goat]

Getting confused here, masthead light usually refers to the light on the head (front) of the mast. Also called a steaming light. I use the tricolour so I can see the windvane on the mast top.

[markpierce]

Seems deck-level running light on low-deck sailboats would limit their effective visibility. I prefer cabin-top level.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Seamule65

.The term "Masthead" (Masthead lights) does not apply to sailboats. The rules in regards to sailboat ONLY references "Masts"...

COLREGS does not differentiate between sailboats and any other type of boat. The only differentiation is between "sailing vessels" and "power-driven vessels". The same rules apply to all vessels with variations based solely on how the vessel is being propelled at a specific time.


(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

So yes, a "sailboat" when under machine power does require a "masthead" light. (at least, if it is over 12m)

[StuM]

Originally Posted by zeehag

AS i stated--masthead lights in sailboats is not mandated in colregs nor anywhere else. it was yotties wise idea in 1988-1990 to add masthead lighting then brag to dockmates around the bbq with mucho tequila and beer..funny how the ones with masthead lights in 1990 were dock queens sitting in marina-went to catalina when they could motivate out of drunken stupid to relocate with all their dockmates to the island for more drunken disorder.

Once again we see the abuse of the term "masthead light" confusing the situation. Within COLREGs, "masthead light" has a very specific meaning - and it does not mean "lights at the top of the mast".


“Masthead light” means a white light placed over the fore and aft centreline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the vessel.

the masthead lights in colregs are for ships and large boats using a mast for the lights-- that translates directly to a fancy stick with a light on top. the stick is generally a standard length.

Masthead lights in COLREGS are mandatory for any vessel over 12m in length which is being propelled by machine (that includes a small sailboat under auxilliary power).

There's no "standard length" stick and the light doesn't have to be (and "on top". On any sailboat, it will part way up the mast.


(c) The masthead light of a power-driven vessel of 12 metres but less than 20 metres in length shall be placed at a height above the gunwale of not less than 2.5 metres.

(d) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 metres in length may carry the uppermost light at a height of less than 2.5 metres above the gunwale. When however a masthead light is carried in addition to sidelights and a sternlight or the all-round light prescribed in Rule 23(c)(i) is carried in addition to sidelights, then such masthead light or all-round light shall be carried at least 1 metre higher than the sidelights.

my traditional lighting is , as i related, visible to horizon.
i donot use masthead lights.
minimum requirement was meant to build on not maintain.
it is always better to be in overkill mode.

That's OK since you are under 12m.

[Seamule65]

Regarding the 72 Colregs.....
Read what they say, not what you want them to say........
The term "Masthead" is strictly a power driven vessel term (Every time the term "Masthead" is used anywhere in the rules, it is proceeded by "Power driven vessel".....
Every time the term "Sailing Vessel" is used anywhere in the rules, the term "Mast" is used.
The difference is this:
A "Masthead" is part of the superstructure of a power driven vessel carrying nav lights, electronic appliances, and sound signaling appliances. Depending on the size of the vessel (under 50 meters MUST have 1 Masthead but MAY have 2, and a vessel over 50 meters MUST have 2 mastheads...
When maneuvering at sea, the range formed by the two mastheads can help determine a target vessel's course in relation to your own vessel.....
Whether the word "Masthead" can historically be traced to sailing vessels is irrelevant in the colregs.
It refers to (and only to) power driven vessels.
The only case that is further clarified in the rules is a sailing vessel being propelled by machinery. This is more of a condition. The sailing vessel would be treated in this condition as a power driven vessel. The vessel is still a sailing vessel and the term "Masthead" doesn't apply.
Likewise (but not addressed in the rules) would be a power driven vessel (such as a fishing trawler) that is assisted by sails. Because it is a power driven vessel, it must comply with "Mastheads"....
Sailing Vessels:
EVERYWHERE in the rules where the term Sailing vessel is used, the term "Mast" is used.
The difference is this....
A "Mast" on a sailboat is PRIMARILY used to sustain it's propelling gear.....It's sail(s)....Yes, yes you can put lights and other gear on it, but the rules wish to differentiate between these vessel with entirely different modes of propulsion....
The rules aren't perfect, only nearly so!!!
Much of this is court interpretations (of which there are many) or as it says "not specified in the rules".....
Cheers, Smitty

[zeehag]

jim, you been around so you know and you read colregs. masthead on a sailing vessel is not mandatory. proper lighting IS mandatory.


i choose traditional lighting over the more complex masthead balderdash that is not mandatory nor inexpensive.
i didnot like the fact i could not discern our masthead anchor lights from ambient hillside puebla lights. i have been making my anchor lights brighter as a result. cockpit level, not masthead height, and unseen by approaching boats against the hills here.
my lights are much brighter than those that are mandatory and can be seen more than 5 miles, both nav lights and anchor light. they are also regulation.
in an anchorage, pangeros donot need to look skyward when they are watching the surface of the water. pangeros cannot see you with masthead lighting . funny thing about that. folks with masthead only anchor lights have been hit by pangas in darkness. oops.
cockpit lights and traditionally placed anchor lights are visible to pangeros as well as all others, as they light the water around the boat, and donot require said pangero to crane neck to look for something not visible from level of water. oops.
optimum level for nav lights is 10 ft above level of water and 10-12 ft apart. visible and bright. no question about what the thing is out there. mine are visible , p[er report to me by a fellow sailor, to the horizon. i am impressed. i dun gud. duh. i always do gud.


goat--masthead is top of mast. steaming light is half way up mast. the tricolor is what i am stating and have been stating is not mandatory. it is also difficult to see when approaching during a passage in a dark night, as it appears as white until almost on top of ye.

as for the individual who could not tel ranting from education and explanation-- that is too bad for you. mebbe you should have paid better attention in school.
i got sick of the drunks at catalina in 1980s. i know it is still the same there as many of my friends were employed in avalon. some as harbor police, some as tour boat captains.
the only change is the goats were banished.

oh yeah when i got this boat the nav lights were on the bow pulpit. as that was way out the sprit, i pulled em back, raised em 10 ft above water level and mounted em in my shrouds, on perota wood light boards. they are perfect.

[markpierce]

A sailboat while using its engine is a motor boat and must show the lights of a motorized boat during reduced visibility, as well as the proper day signal if over 12 meters.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Seamule65

]Regarding the 72 Colregs.....
Read what they say, not what you want them to say........
The term "Masthead" is strictly a power driven vessel term (Every time the term "Masthead" is used anywhere in the rules, it is proceeded by "Power driven vessel".....

Except for:
26 (b), 27 (b) (iii), 28, 29(a)
which all just refer to "vessel" with no differentiation between "power-driven" and "sailing".

...
The difference is this:
A "Masthead" is part of the superstructure of a power driven vessel carrying nav lights, electronic appliances, and sound signaling appliances. ...
It refers to (and only to) power driven vessels.
The only case that is further clarified in the rules is a sailing vessel being propelled by machinery. This is more of a condition. The sailing vessel would be treated in this condition as a power driven vessel. The vessel is still a sailing vessel and the term "Masthead" doesn't apply.
Likewise (but not addressed in the rules) would be a power driven vessel (such as a fishing trawler) that is assisted by sails. Because it is a power driven vessel, it must comply with "Mastheads"....

You continue to misinterpret the very clear definition that a "power-driven boat" is any boat which at the time is drive by mechanical propulsion and includes a sailboat under auxiliary engine.

"Sailing vessel" is not a type of vessel, it is any vessel which at the time is only propelled by sails.

Do you have any reference to support your contention that a "masthead" is a physical construction and not just a reference to a location on a mast?
(It's the first time, I've heard that claim and I haven't been able to find any such reference).

And note that we are referring to the definition of a "masthead light" as specified in COLREGs. I'm not aware of anywhere that the term "masthead" is used alone.