problem with the UK registration

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by savoir

You wouldn't read about it boatman but the rotten sods have put the price up to 25 quid. No doubt when the time for your boat's registration renewal comes around you will proudly hand over that extra tenner happy in the knowledge that you have done your bit to help reduce the national debt.

ROTFLMAO.... don't do as I do...
do as I recommend...
I'm not registered...
but I got blue eyes...

[savoir]

Her Majesty will not be amused. Do you have any idea how much weddings cost these days ? ? ?

[simonmd]

When I bought my British flaged boat a year ago, also in Spain, I actualy used a friends address as i'd just sold my main property and hadn'd move to the next one yet. There was no problem, the documents arrived and all was well.

Therefore, i suspect Boatman is right. The OP has simply tried to circumvent the rules by using a 'mailing address'. The rules are simple, No full time address, No British flag, simple. It doesn't matter whether you're a UK passport holder or not, you don't have an automatic right unless you have some sort of residence in the UK.

[savoir]

That's why corporate ownership can be the better way to go for some. It costs 124 quid for 5 years which isn't too bad. You do need an address in UK but there are plenty of accountants who will do that for a small fee. Dormant companies don't get much mail.

[luis requena]

thanks to everyone to nwer his tread
well the thing is easy, i do not want spaish flag cos it will cost me around 2000 euros and a lot of burocracy and problems, so i prefere to have a flag that is less pain in th ass. i'm from spain an the boat is there but just for litle while cos i move a lot to difrent countries to work and the boat is my house and trnportation.
i go adress in uk, but my friend wasn't there where the letter arrive so they send it back to ssr.
i do not want to screew the system i just want to sail and live in my boat with no problem. the boat is cheap and old 79 so the VAT is done, and i'm now working on it.
so to the problem i think is their threat of finish my registration the 15 of march, that give me no time to fix it and so what that means. the boat registration will be on the last owner name, that is not a ploblen becouse is a friend. or the boat will be with no registration?. or maybe now i could do a new registry of the boat in the name of my friend who is living in uk that is another posibility?

so thanks again for the threads

[Pblais]

or maybe now i could do a new registry of the boat in the name of my friend who is living in uk that is another posibility?

You may have a time gap as you clean up the paperwork but you need the boat in your name otherwise it isn't really your boat. With your friends name it really becomes his boat. It could be a problem when some official wants to know who is this other person and you say it is your friend who is not there. A fussy official might assume you stole the boat when you show a passport with your real name and a different name on your ships papers that would probably be out of date. It won't be an easy conversation. It might not happen soon but you could have a real problem. A fussy Spanish port official could make a very bad time of it.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Pblais

You may have a time gap as you clean up the paperwork but you need the boat in your name otherwise it isn't really your boat. With your friends name it really becomes his boat. It could be a problem when some official wants to know who is this other person and you say it is your friend who is not there. A fussy official might assume you stole the boat when you show a passport with your real name and a different name on your ships papers that would probably be out of date. It won't be an easy conversation. It might not happen soon but you could have a real problem. A fussy Spanish port official could make a very bad time of it.

SSR is not proof of ownership. It's proof of registration on the SSR........and it's not even proof that it's a boat that is registered (and not a wheelbarrow).

SSR being in another's name may cause problems later (but only from a lack of understanding by a local official / raising sispicions for other things) but a Letter of Authority will be ok - even if the price of that is explaining why it is ok .

I would however choose that my freind sells the boat (to me) before the SSR expires (not that it greatly matters).......whilst I was resident in the UK , with the address to match (and remember that in the UK no ID cards or registration of addresses - so UK govt has no idea who is in the country. or where people are).

Won't be legal of course to be a non UK resident with a boat on the SSR - but we do need every £25 we can get

[Pblais]

Nothing really matters until it really does. Personal preferences aside it is the preference of others that influence when it really matters.

A boat too long in Spain with a Spanish citizen and a friend in the UK isn't an easy story. The long CF thread about the Dutch couple in Spain points this out. They were without a friend however. The truth and the evidence should lead someone to a comfortable conclusion. It wouldn't have to be perfect but when faced with legal systems founded on the Napoleonic Code the paperwork matters more than the situation at hand. In a lot of other places around the world this problem passes by easily. As with lightning being some place else is the most simple solution.

It would seem the friend should own the boat in the UK and a letter from the friend conveying permission could be appropriate. Official looking stationary and maybe a few stamps on it. A notary seal would make it all very important and truthful too. The trouble gets to be if the friend wants his boat back? What if the friends boat gets in trouble. The friend is suddenly not your friend and clearly your boat is really his boat with papers to prove it. As you leave the country and escape the law (not your boat) your friend knows you quite well and can provide easy identification to save himself from his boats problem - you. Friends never forget.

Without a sizable gray area none of the scenarios work that well. We still have the issue of insurance. I'm sorry Luis there is no simple complete solution unless you can become English?

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Pblais

A boat too long in Spain with a Spanish citizen and a friend in the UK isn't an easy story.

I agree with that. The trick with a complicated story is to spoonfeed people. But basic point is that any boat too long in Spain will be looked at as Spanish (with the boat taxes and regulations to match), wherever it is registered or owned / used by a citizen of anywhere......luck will play a part in timing of that arriving. If OP is genuinely passing through Spain then stands a better chance than an Expat Brit who has been living aboard in Spain for 5 years already..........Speaking the lingo (and an inherent understanding of how things are in Spain) will be a big advantage. Being Spanish will have a downside as well, likely will have to prove why the boat (and you) should not be considered as having been imported..............get the story straight (and the paperwork to match) beforehand. and keep yer fingers crossed.

It wouldn't have to be perfect but when faced with legal systems founded on the Napoleonic Code the paperwork matters more than the situation at hand. In a lot of other places around the world this problem passes by easily.

The thing about the Napoleonic Code (and why it has survived around the world) is that it is evidence based, unlike the Anglo Saxon preference for giving officials arbitary powers, or letting Judges make up their own laws..........neither approach in practice is perfect. The History of the Napoleonic Code is really quite fascinating although of course Napoleon consider a bogeyman by the Anglo Saxons (he lost, so didn't get to write the History books ) he did a lot of good in Europe and actually liberated most of it from living under the whims of Princes, Popes and Priests.

As with lightning being some place else is the most simple solution.

An ounce of prevention better than a gallon of cure

It would seem the friend should own the boat in the UK and a letter from the friend conveying permission could be appropriate. Official looking stationary and maybe a few stamps on it. A notary seal would make it all very important and truthful too.

I would also get the key documents (especially the Letter of Authority) translated into the likely languages and also notarised. The Notary does not automatically make something truthful (depends what he is saying) and is only anyway "true" at a point in time (the past).

The trouble gets to be if the friend wants his boat back? What if the friends boat gets in trouble. The friend is suddenly not your friend and clearly your boat is really his boat with papers to prove it. As you leave the country and escape the law (not your boat) your friend knows you quite well and can provide easy identification to save himself from his boats problem - you. Friends never forget.

Never go into business with a freind you can't afford to lose. or wouldn't mind burying

The good thing with a UK registered boat is that you can seperate title / ownership from the registration (both on SSR and the Part 1 "Blue Book")........so all OP needs to do is get the right agreement signed with his freind. All perfectly legal.

I'm sorry Luis there is no simple complete solution unless you can become English?

Becoming English would not solve his problems (only add to them? ).......all he needs to do is become a UK resident. and he can be a Citizen of Spain, Uganda or Mars to do that.

The only 100% legal way that OP can get his SSR Registration into his own name is to become UK Resident (which may involve a personal tax bill).

If the boat was Part 1 (Blue Book) registered he could go company owned route - but SSR does not allow company ownership. and Part 1 would cost to do as boat would need a Survey.

My guess is that he bought from a Brit a boat that had been (too) long in Spain - and priced accordingly.

[Pblais]

If you can move around fast enough without having to clear in and out of customs you could travel around Spain a long time and never leave the country. It comes down to moving all the time. It's the same for a US citizen with a boat in the US. If you can move quick enough you can go state to state and never owe the tax if you don't wear out your so many days welcome. No federal tax so it's just one state to the next. It's nominally 90 days. Foreign vessels get a bigger break but for the most part the boat can stay longer than the people for free.

It's legal to run between the rules until you slow down. They catch you by the calendar.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Saucy Sailoress

From your name and place of residence, I guess you're Spanish? If that's the case, why not register it in Spain? It's all Europe - can't be very different there! And your flag has much nicer colours...

I am afraid your knowledge of Spanish (or other EU states) boat registration procedures is next to nill ... ;-)))

Then again, looking at carelessness and lack of skill of local boaters, I would say the Spanish govt is damn right!

...

;-)))))
b.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

The thing about the Napoleonic Code (and why it has survived around the world) is that it is evidence based, unlike the Anglo Saxon preference for giving officials arbitary powers, or letting Judges make up their own laws..........neither approach in practice is perfect. The History of the Napoleonic Code is really quite fascinating although of course Napoleon consider a bogeyman by the Anglo Saxons (he lost, so didn't get to write the History books ) he did a lot of good in Europe and actually liberated most of it from living under the whims of Princes, Popes and Priests.

Umm, it's way off topic, but as someone who used to teach this stuff I can't let this go without comment.

Napoleon did not invent the legal system used in France and other Continental countries -- we call it Civil Law and it is based on the Roman law. It is different from the Anglo-Saxon legal system mainly in that all legal authority in Civil Law systems is derived from an all-powerful sovereign. The Anglo-Saxon legal system does not allow any sovereign any kind of ultimate legal authority -- the sovereign's legal authority is limited by traditional rights, which are guaranteed by judges who are more or less independent of the sovereign, and who have quite a lot of authority to interpret traditional rights and traditional interpretations of the law (through the principle of stare decisis -- they don't just make it up). The whole idea of this is embodied in England's unwritten constitution, which is one of mankind's greatest achievements in what regards human freedom.

Because of the total legal authority of the sovereign in Civil Law systems, the law in these systems is very amenable to codification. Napoleon did not invent the first legal code; the Romans were at it from time immemorial. Napoleon merely ordered a major update of the legal system.

Civil Law and Common Law legal systems do not deal with evidence in any systematically different way, so you can't say that Civil Law systems are "evidence-based". Because of the total concentration of legal authority in the sovereign, Civil Law systems are on the contrary much more prone to the creation of bureaucracies with officials who have great powers. The system itself does not provide any checks and balances on the power of bureaucracts, because power is monolithic in these systems. Common Law systems used to be much less bureaucratized than Continental systems were - in the U.S. there was even a Constitutional doctrine called the "non-delegation doctrine" which sensibly forbade the legislature from delegating to bureaucrats any power which is essentially legislative. But bureaucracy became an essential instrument of power, and the Anglo-Saxon world enthusiastically imited Bismarck's system of bureaucracy until gradually we converged with the Continental world in that respect. Unfortunately. But you can't say that Common Law systems are more prone to bureaucracy. The opposite in fact is true.