Professional Pilot ignoring Colregs

[Donnybrook]

A quarter mile is two ship lengths so close, but not that close. I would have thanked the pilot for contacting me and asked what I should do to make it a safe passing. Odds are the pilot would have asked me to remain the stand-on vessel and not alter course toward him or ask me to deviate away if I wanted more room.

Compared to saying "What are you doing? Why haven't you called us back and arranged an agreement for who goes first?", this approach would not have hurt the pilot's impression of "yachties".

[TrentePieds]

Well, after 130-odd posts, most of which counsel common sense, I thot ye might all like to see this:

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia...?source=google

I think, meself, that the yacht skipper, a lieutenant (RN) manqué I read between the lines, was let off easy both by Neptune and by Judge Calloway

TrentePieds

[ohgary]

Originally Posted by carstenb

"Well we're bigger than you are"

Rules of gross tonnage always apply regardless of Colregs in the real world. Could have been the pilot was late for dinner and wanted to finish up his day. You could have let him ram you, but that gets no one anywhere, but Most likely he was just an ASS.

Move on and have a drink.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Well, after 130-odd posts, most of which counsel common sense, I thot ye might all like to see this:

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia...?source=google

I think, meself, that the yacht skipper, a lieutenant (RN) manqué I read between the lines, was let off easy both by Neptune and by Judge Calloway

TrentePieds

This is a very old video and case. Yes the naval lt. Did mot follow the coltegs. As such this video and instance has nothing to do with the case presented

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by ohgary

Rules of gross tonnage always apply regardless of Colregs in the real world. Could have been the pilot was late for dinner and wanted to finish up his day. You could have let him ram you, but that gets no one anywhere, but Most likely he was just an ASS.

Move on and have a drink.

No in the real world tje Colregs apply. Sometimes Rule #2 iis the rule to follow

Making up your own rules merely confuses everyone in busy places like NYC harbor or the Slent and the rest of the english channel applying your “rule of gross tonbage” will get you in major problems

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Calling the Ship we get the Pilot on the radio. What are you doing? Why haven't you called us back and arranged an agreement for who goes first?

Without getting into "Who's right?" (I'm sure it's been covered) Your comment may have come off as a public dressing down, and the Captain, right or wrong, gave a comeback.

Courtesy and professionalism go a long way in radio comms, it doesn't hurt to phrase accordingly.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by carstenb

No in the real world tje Colregs apply. Sometimes Rule #2 iis the rule to follow

Making up your own rules merely confuses everyone in busy places like NYC harbor or the Slent and the rest of the english channel applying your “rule of gross tonbage” will get you in major problems

Here is Rule 2 "Responsibility" in its entirety (highlights added(PDF HERE).

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had
to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances,including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

How do you figure a ship on approach to a harbor requiring a pilot (and who was aboard) isn't a 'special circumstance?'

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by carstenb

This is a very old video and case. Yes the naval lt. Did mot follow the coltegs. As such this video and instance has nothing to do with the case presented

By memory the Naval Officer was a blanket folder and most likely had as much idea about colregs as I have about blanket folding.

[TrentePieds]

Oh dear, Pinguino, you are so DIRECT :-0)!!

That is precisely what I meant by "manqué" :-)

I cited the case, not in hope of telling Carsten anything that he doesn't already know, but in the hope that some who have joined us since 2012 (was it?) will, in the future, line up on the side of common sense.

Carsten, having sailed, if briefly, in my waters, will know why I do that. These waters are crowded. Among the things we used to get, though not so much any more, is a string of three log booms (2 INCHES of freeboard) being towed at night, little tuggie going flat out at, oh, a knot, a knot'n'an'arf, with the booms marked only by an old-fashioned kerosene (Parafin) storm lantern on each corner. And an evil steel hawser betwixt them. That hawser would cut through your stemhead like it was cheese if the tension on it happened to be high enuff to raise the bight to within your draft.

We have splendid passes such as Active Pass and Dodds Narrows. In Active, 20K ton ferries charge through at 18 knots often on a 4-knot stream. If a ferry loses her steerageway while on the standard track twixt Tsawwassen on the "Mainland" and Swartz Bay on the "Island" it may very well be Collison Reef for her!

So what's a ferry skipper to do? Please, please don't ever put an honest, responsibility-laden seafaring man in such a predicament!

With my piddling five-foot draft and six-knot speed, I'm more than prepared to turn tail and run. For the ferry-boys, I'll even dip my ensign :-)!

TrentePieds

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Here is Rule 2 "Responsibility" in its entirety (highlights added(PDF HERE).

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had
to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances,including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

How do you figure a ship on approach to a harbor requiring a pilot (and who was aboard) isn't a 'special circumstance?'

What make it a Special Circumstance? The ship is not NUC. The ship is perfectly maneuverable. Having a local pilot on board would, in my eyes, mean that the ship now has excellent advice from a local on potential problems with reefs, currents etc etc etc.

Lest we forget, when the situation first developed, the ship was 3+ miles off shore, in open ocean and virtually lying ahull (its speed shown on my AIS was 1 knot)

You need to specify why you think this was a special circumstance.
Approaching a harbor is not in and of itself a Special Circumstance. If it was, then we should all be given extraordinary treatment every time we enter a harbor.

[Kettlewell]

Haven't read the whole thread, but in general I just give big guys the right of way and let them do their thing. I have often encountered ships, ferrries, fishing boats, tugs, etc. that ignore me and proceed as if we aren't there, so I proceed as if they will run me down and am usually happy I do so.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by carstenb

What make it a Special Circumstance? The ship is not NUC. The ship is perfectly maneuverable. Having a local pilot on board would, in my eyes, mean that the ship now has excellent advice from a local on potential problems with reefs, currents etc etc etc.

Lest we forget, when the situation first developed, the ship was 3+ miles off shore, in open ocean and virtually lying ahull (its speed shown on my AIS was 1 knot)

You need to specify why you think this was a special circumstance.
Approaching a harbor is not in and of itself a Special Circumstance. If it was, then we should all be given extraordinary treatment every time we enter a harbor.

According to the pilots website, they board at 3 miles out. So it was no more than that.

You have given zero distances except your oft-stated "open ocean" claim. Personally, I find it hard to believe that you were paralleling the coast to enter the harbor at 3 miles out, but you were there. So I suspect you were no more than a mile out. But you were there I wasn't.

When I read the words of Rule 2 with a ship on approach, I had a lot more sympathy for the pilot giving you a mild verbal middle finger. Had there been a collision, it would not have gone well for you. What makes it a special circumstance? You knew he was on approach. You knew you were in some version of vessel traffic schema. You knew the ship had limited ability to maneuver. You were no closer than 1/4 mile CPA which is a lot given the width of the channel. You had many options to stay out of the channel entirely. You were on Ch 16 which isn't a bridge-bridge or port ops channel in any universe. And yet you want to asset your passing rights as if you're in open ocean. Good luck with that.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by carstenb

What make it a Special Circumstance? The ship is not NUC. The ship is perfectly maneuverable. Having a local pilot on board would, in my eyes, mean that the ship now has excellent advice from a local on potential problems with reefs, currents etc etc etc.

Lest we forget, when the situation first developed, the ship was 3+ miles off shore, in open ocean and virtually lying ahull (its speed shown on my AIS was 1 knot)

You need to specify why you think this was a special circumstance.
Approaching a harbor is not in and of itself a Special Circumstance. If it was, then we should all be given extraordinary treatment every time we enter a harbor.

According to the pilots website, they board at 3 miles out. So it was no more than that when the pilot boarded, and you watched him accelerate to 10 kts which has to take close to a mile. So this "open ocean" claim sounds a bit revisionist.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that you were paralleling the coast to enter the harbor at 3 miles out since the 2-3 buoys marking the entrance channel is 1/8th mile off the coastline, but you were there. For whatever reason, you got a bee in your bonnet and decided to post your grievance. You've had a couple sympathetic folks, and quite a few who think there was an easy out. BTW - I agree with you that there is no rule of tonnage, though perhaps "special circumstances" might be the rubric to cover.

When I read the words of Rule 2 with a ship on approach, I had a lot more sympathy for the pilot giving you a mild verbal middle finger. Had there been a collision, it would not have gone well for you. You had a million options including staying a bit outside the channel in the first place. What makes it a special circumstance? You knew he was on approach which limits his options. You knew you were in some version of vessel traffic control schema. You knew the ship had limited ability to maneuver. You were no closer than 1/4 mile CPA which is a lot given the width of the channel. You had many options to stay out of the channel entirely. You were on Ch 16 which isn't a bridge-bridge or port ops channel in any universe. And yet you want to assert your passing rights as if you're in open ocean. Good luck with that.

[El Pinguino]

In my experience 3 miles from the fairway buoy or start of the channel is pretty much the norm for pilot boarding grounds. It gives the pilot time to climb the pilot ladder, then up maybe 5 flights of stairs, onto the darkened bridge, do the pilot/master exchange, get the ship moving and onto the leads.

And no - a 786 foot long ship doing 1 knot is not 'perfectly manoeuvrable'.

[rslifkin]

To me it's the acceleration from 1 kt that throws a wrench into things. At the point of initial contact with the ship Carsten could reasonably assume they were heading into the harbor and would at some point begin moving faster. But when they'd start accelerating and to what speed was an unknown at that point. So in my mind, if the ship doesn't communicate their intentions you've got 2 choices. Either adjust course and potentially have to kill some time until the situation becomes clear, or you continue as the stand on vessel until the situation changes.