Professional Pilot ignoring Colregs

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

To me it's the acceleration from 1 kt that throws a wrench into things. At the point of initial contact with the ship Carsten could reasonably assume they were heading into the harbor and would at some point begin moving faster. But when they'd start accelerating and to what speed was an unknown at that point. So in my mind, if the ship doesn't communicate their intentions you've got 2 choices. Either adjust course and potentially have to kill some time until the situation becomes clear, or you continue as the stand on vessel until the situation changes.

Another option. Since he thought 1/4 mile was hazardous (apparently the pilot did not) and he was approaching from the west, he could have paralleled the North/South channel a few meters to the west where there is plenty of water and avoided the confrontation altogether. See attached.

This was not a typical open water passing situation. This was a ship entering a harbor that required a pilot be aboard. The OPs characterization that this was a simple passing situation and that he's miffed the pilot didn't kiss his ring is out of bounds. If the pilot had drinks with friends that night, I'm sure he recounted the story of the arrogant sailor who wanted him to divert for passing rights.

[El Pinguino]

OK, so we are lacking actual detail on how far offshore the OP was.
Let us say 1.5 miles steering east and the inbound ship is 3 miles steering south. Inbound ship is passing 1/4 mile ahead.
So inbound alters to starboard to pass 1/4 mile astern - yikes - still too close in the view of the OP!!!
However inbound ship is now half a mile west of the leads and a mile and a half off the entrance. Nobody in their right mind is going to put themselves in that situation.
This assumes the OP was going to keep heading east.
Mind you if I was the pilot I would probably assume the OP was going to come to starboard and enter close west of the channel.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Another option. Since he thought 1/4 mile was hazardous (apparently the pilot did not) and he was approaching from the west, he could have paralleled the North/South channel a few meters to the west where there is plenty of water and avoided the confrontation altogether. See attached.

This was not a typical open water passing situation. This was a ship entering a harbor that required a pilot be aboard. The OPs characterization that this was a simple passing situation and that he's miffed the pilot didn't kiss his ring is out of bounds. If the pilot had drinks with friends that night, I'm sure he recounted the story of the arrogant sailor who wanted him to divert for passing rights.

Keep in mind that the CPA didn't get down to 1/4 mile until after the ship accelerated. So at the point of initial contact and decision making there was no indication of things being that close. I wouldn't necessarily expect the ship to adjust for me that close to the channel, but a response that they'd be entering at 10 kts would have given enough information to plan on adjusting course and following them in.

[mvweebles]

I spent 5 years as a full time delivery skipper out of San Francisco. Mostly I moved boats from southern California to PNW. On any given week, I might transit shipping entrances for Long Beach/Los Angeles; San Francisco; Columbia River, and Juan de Fuca/Seattle. The pilot boarding buoy for SF is 14 miles out. The busiest ports on the west coast.

I'm struggling to find sympathy with the OPs position. I'd like to know how often folks get a response to their VHF call. From experience, I can tell you that sailors rarely respond to VHF hails, probably because their main radio is below decks.

This thread is much ado about nothing.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Keep in mind that the CPA didn't get down to 1/4 mile until after the ship accelerated. So at the point of initial contact and decision making there was no indication of things being that close. I wouldn't necessarily expect the ship to adjust for me that close to the channel, but a response that they'd be entering at 10 kts would have given enough information to plan on adjusting course and following them in.

The OP was headed to the same port and could have easily just stayed close to the channel and never cross the ships path. He had many options to stay well clear.

If the ship thought there was an issue, they would have given 5 whistles. I heard them all the time when I lived on my boat in San Francisco. We have no details on how far off the coast the OP was sailing, or when the 1/4 mile CPA was taken - could be well before the OP made the southward turn into the harbor so was irrelevant. The ship didn't think there was an issue. The OP did and his feelings were hurt.

[Uricanejack]

The Red Tanker guy.
Possibly one of the worlds most infamous sailors.
Particularly with an entire crew of RN Brass.
Yep he did something dumb.
I looked up his bio on Linkdin back at the time.
I assumed he might have been an non watch keeper trade.
Nope ironically amusing.
He was a Nav Officer with a particular focus on training and good seamanship.
He might have changed his profile.

In the end he was found guilty of what amounted to a traffic ticket.
The judge threw the book at him. Costs ect probably impacted his life for some time.
Noteriety may not have helped his search for a position as a seamanship trainer

In the end despite the good laughs i had at his expense.
I allways felt he got a bit of a raw deal.

His boat got wrecked.
His reputation ruined.
If he shows up at the yacht club bar anywher after
the race.
Good manners. Don’t mention the red tanker.
But quietly everyone would.

In addition to his loss of face.
The Judge hit him with a heavy penalty.
Probably he didnt just accept he was at fault and they had to through the whole trail thing.

Nothing much was said about the 2 Pilots and Bridge Crew of the Bid Red Tanker. After they managed to hit him.
laughing at the Stupid Navy Officer was much more fun.,

The OP not the sharpest sailer.
Not comparable.
Just being a bit unreasonable with his expectations.
He didn’t do anything wrong to actually endanger his boat cree or even the Pilot.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

The OP was headed to the same port and could have easily just stayed close to the channel and never cross the ships path. He had many options to stay well clear.

If the ship thought there was an issue, they would have given 5 whistles. I heard them all the time when I lived on my boat in San Francisco. We have no details on how far off the coast the OP was sailing, or when the 1/4 mile CPA was taken - could be well before the OP made the southward turn into the harbor so was irrelevant. The ship didn't think there was an issue. The OP did and his feelings were hurt.

Exactly, ship would be going down centre line of entrance channel, yacht goes down the western edge . Risk of collision = zero.
Unless of course it was a 'deep draft' yacht.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

The Red Tanker guy.
Possibly one of the worlds most infamous sailors.
Particularly with an entire crew of RN Brass.
Yep he did something dumb.
I looked up his bio on Linkdin back at the time.
I assumed he might have been an non watch keeper trade.
Nope ironically amusing.
He was a Nav Officer with a particular focus on training and good seamanship.
He might have changed his profile.

In the end he was found guilty of what amounted to a traffic ticket.
The judge threw the book at him. Costs ect probably impacted his life for some time.
Noteriety may not have helped his search for a position as a seamanship trainer

In the end despite the good laughs i had at his expense.
I allways felt he got a bit of a raw deal.

His boat got wrecked.
His reputation ruined.
If he shows up at the yacht club bar anywher after
the race.
Good manners. Don’t mention the red tanker.
But quietly everyone would.

In addition to his loss of face.
The Judge hit him with a heavy penalty.
Probably he didnt just accept he was at fault and they had to through the whole trail thing.

Nothing much was said about the 2 Pilots and Bridge Crew of the Bid Red Tanker. After they managed to hit him.
laughing at the Stupid Navy Officer was much more fun.,

The OP not the sharpest sailer.
Not comparable.
Just being a bit unreasonable with his expectations.
He didn’t do anything wrong to actually endanger his boat crew or even the Pilot.

He hit them, they didn't hit him.
Didn't endanger his crew? A few metres this way or that would have seen the boat sunk, crew in water, bobbing down the side of the BRT until sucked into prop and converted to fish bait.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Iron E

Courtesy and professionalism go a long way in radio comms, it doesn't hurt to phrase accordingly.

Agree, I likely would not have even bothered with the second call; the movement was answer in itself.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

How do you figure a ship on approach to a harbor requiring a pilot (and who was aboard) isn't a 'special circumstance?'

As this is a thread about technicalities, the courts seem to consider special circumstances allowing deviation from the rules to only apply in cases of immediate danger. (Otherwise, you'd have people always arguing about how they were more special.) In this situation, with no immediate danger, the question would be whether the crossing rule was still in play, or if the approach was sufficiently close that the narrow channel rule took over.

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

However inbound ship is now half a mile west of the leads and a mile and a half off the entrance. Nobody in their right mind is going to put themselves in that situation.
This assumes the OP was going to keep heading east.
Mind you if I was the pilot I would probably assume the OP was going to come to starboard and enter close west of the channel.

A perfectly reasonable assumption; if we are playing by the rules there was no reason for their courses to cross.

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

The Red Tanker guy.
Possibly one of the worlds most infamous sailors.
Particularly with an entire crew of RN Brass.
Yep he did something dumb.
I looked up his bio on Linkdin back at the time.
I assumed he might have been an non watch keeper trade.
Nope ironically amusing.
He was a Nav Officer with a particular focus on training and good seamanship.
He might have changed his profile.

In the end he was found guilty of what amounted to a traffic ticket.
The judge threw the book at him. Costs ect probably impacted his life for some time.
Noteriety may not have helped his search for a position as a seamanship trainer

In the end despite the good laughs i had at his expense.
I allways felt he got a bit of a raw deal.

His boat got wrecked.
His reputation ruined.
If he shows up at the yacht club bar anywher after
the race.
Good manners. Don’t mention the red tanker.
But quietly everyone would.

In addition to his loss of face.
The Judge hit him with a heavy penalty.
Probably he didnt just accept he was at fault and they had to through the whole trail thing.

Nothing much was said about the 2 Pilots and Bridge Crew of the Bid Red Tanker. After they managed to hit him.
laughing at the Stupid Navy Officer was much more fun.,

The OP not the sharpest sailer.
Not comparable.
Just being a bit unreasonable with his expectations.
He didn’t do anything wrong to actually endanger his boat cree or even the Pilot.

That is a gross misrepresentation.
The man was found guilty yes, but he was very open about the whole ordeal, and took full responsibility.

He also explained in detail how they got there, and why many of us could have ended up in the same situation.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

He hit them, they didn't hit him.
Didn't endanger his crew? A few metres this way or that would have seen the boat sunk, crew in water, bobbing down the side of the BRT until sucked into prop and converted to fish bait.

I probably did not write it very well.
The OP of this thread, about the Pilot and ignoring the colregs. Did not endanger His boat or crew?

The comparison to.

The Big Red Tanker guy who most certainly did endangered his crew.
If I remember right one or two did end up in the water, Possible tarnished some of the brass.

Just to be fair.

The Big Red Tanker, They were both underway making way and hit each other.
If the Big Red Tanker had been parked or at least not making way?
Then "He hit them, They didn't hit him" would be correct.

At one point in time the VDR voice recording from the Tanker Bridge was on line.
I did listen it was a while back my best recollection.

You don't hear much. Just the Conn Pilot giving helm orders, The QM response.
The Master and 2nd Pilot. You can hear a side conversation (most likely irrelevant) You can not quite make it out.

There was a little bit of discussion about the stationary motor boat the details of which I've forgotten. Exactly who said what to who? I can't recall

Until just moments before the collision.
The 2nd Pilot can be hear saying something about it looking like we are going to hit him.

What stands out to me is what is not heard.
There was no MAIB report, The MAIB deferred to harbor or ports internal investigation. It may be a public document, I have never seen published or available on line.

The Trail was about the Infamous Sailor.

So little or nothing about the Big Red Tanker.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

That is a gross misrepresentation.
The man was found guilty yes, but he was very open about the whole ordeal, and took full responsibility.

He also explained in detail how they got there, and why many of us could have ended up in the same situation.

Misrepresentation of what?
He plead not guilty. How does this equate to taking full responsibility.

It was a minor offence with a small fine.
He was Found Guilty.

He testified openly, The Jury Found him guilty.

The Judge ordered he paid costs. That was really severe.

Just my opinion.
Sure he did something stupid. He was accused of an offence, He plead Not Guilty.
Which in England a Democratic Society both common law and statute tell me is everyone's fundamental right.

The Judge made him pay for exercising the right of an accused to a trail.

I think it was a bit of a raw deal.

I did kind of slag him off a bit.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Exactly, ship would be going down centre line of entrance channel, yacht goes down the western edge . Risk of collision = zero.
Unless of course it was a 'deep draft' yacht.

It was a very big yacht. It required a minimum CPA much greater than 1/4 mile and had to take action as a stand on vessel to avoid close quarters under rule 2. (not 17) apparently

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Another option. Since he thought 1/4 mile was hazardous (apparently the pilot did not)

Well, to each his own - at night 1/4nm and not knowing if his AIS antenna is mounted forward or near the stern is a close crossing in my book - You might be quite willing to risk a collision - but I'm not
and he was approaching from the west, he could have paralleled the North/South channel a few meters to the west where there is plenty of water and avoided the confrontation altogether. See attached.

This was not a typical open water passing situation.
This is an opinion on your part. My opinion is that 3 miles off-shore where there is no channel, nor channel markings nor any other circumstances that give the ship the "special circumstances" you have quoted (BTW I'm still waiting for you definition of the "special circumstances") is open ocean

This was a ship entering a harbor that required a pilot be aboard. The OPs characterization that this was a simple passing situation and that he's miffed the pilot didn't kiss his ring is out of bounds.
Kiss his ring is a bit over the top - don't you think?
In previous posts you have accused me of "panicking" which there is no indication of.

If the pilot had drinks with friends that night, I'm sure he recounted the story of the arrogant sailor who wanted him to divert for passing rights.

The issue here is that we saw a situation developing that could lead to trouble. In order to avoid this potential, we exhibited good seamanship by hailing the vessel and initiating a discussion regarding intentions etc. (we did not know if the pilot was going to immediately increase speed, perhaps needed to wait for outgoing traffic or for a berth to open etc etc etc etc A common courtesy would be to call back.

For those who are suggesting that we put our boat into a danger situation - no we immediately hove to and allowed the ship to enter the harbor.

Many professional skippers of large ships refer to leisure sailors as WAFIs and with good cause. Mostly they do so because many leisure skippers decide to make up their own rules, Law of tonnage, Business before pleasure and all the other self-made rules. It is incumbent on us to follow the Colregs - which we did in this instance

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by requiem

. . . In this situation, with no immediate danger, the question would be whether the crossing rule was still in play, or if the approach was sufficiently close that the narrow channel rule took over...

This is going to sound pedantic, but it's actually important to understand --


There is no point at which the narrow channel rule [Rule 9] "takes over". The regular steering & sailing rules remain in effect even when Rule 9 comes into play.