Professional Pilot ignoring Colregs

[rbrazil]

I like to use the rule of common sense; Get the hell out of the way of big ships! We sailors under motor power are very nimble compared to ships. Get the hell out of their way, and fast!

[Knotical]

I agree with thinwater

If I am in close proximity or on a collision course with a behemoth I get out of their way as long as it is safe for me to do so, expecting anything else of them is naïve, and frankly, stupid. The pilot is working and may be on a schedule for whatever reason (current/tide, weather, next ship to pilot), you are having fun - you decide who gets precedence.

I am not surprised about his rudeness either

[5BTM]

The pilot did you a favor.
Colregs might have been on your side, but the laws of physics were definetely agains you. Big ships displace thousands of tons of water and are powered by propellers spun by thousands of kilowatts of power.

Your 40 footer would definitely defintely notice their proximity.

Add this to the rules:
"Where the big boys play, small boys give way"

[Wayne Bostow]

"Here lies the body of John O'Day,
who died defending his Right of Way!
He was right, dead right as he sailed along,
but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong!"

Can anybody correct the above quote and tell me the source which I lost some decades back? --WB

[Scorpius]

It happens all the time. Learn to live with it. One of these times you might find yourself "dead right" - in the right but still dead.

My brother recently retired from the Pacific Coast Pilotage working out of Vancouver. Those ships simply CANNOT manoeuvre to avoid small vessels. Use common sense and just give them a wide berth. A pilot coming aboard a probably strange ship (to him) has a VERY steep learning curve when he first comes aboard and if he doesn't get it right a really major incident could develop. The "Ever Given" anyone? Give him a break. Just stay away.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

What might ‘seem to be true” to you is just not the case, and is not the intent of the definition of RAM. RAM status is NOT applicable to any vessel under pilotage, entering a harbor, or in a narrow channel.

A vessel’s ‘work’ is not being underway, but something else that it is doing other than navigating.

There are many situations where it might be inconvenient for a vessel to maneuver, but those do not make it RAM. A good example would be a cargo ship drifting, I.e., underway but not making way. There is no special status to such a vessel, they are just motor vessels and are treated under the rules as such. Now, a sailboat that holds course and forces a close quarters situation with a ship drifting at a fraction of a knot is clearly violating the spirit of the rules if not a specific chapter and verse.

I stand corrected - I did a bit more probing and the context around "nature of work" is limiting - examples are dredging, etc.

Thanks for the clarification.

[carstenb]

Amazing. My op noted that both boats were in open ocean AND the ship was for all intents and purposes lying ahull

No one, repeat no one was in the harbor channel or even close to it

So the colreg of stand on/ give way applies here. No need to go looking for other rules

My main beef is tjat we had initiated a converstion in good time(before any acute situation was occuring) and the pilot could apparently not lower his dignity to call us back and agrre he was going to go first

By the way. Both my wife and have the IMO equivalent of USCG 200 ton unlimited and Ihold a commercial captains license so we are not colregs ignorant. We actually do know them

And for those who think we should stay away from the panama canal - we have transited twice once in each direction without any issues

Now if you want your colregs knowledge challenged try sailing into NYC harbor in heavy fog
This is what is known as “brown shorts time”. Every type of vessel you can imagine is coming at you from every direction

[paul.devalier]

My reading of the colregs makes Boat B the standon vessel.
But regardless of the colregs...
I stay out of the way of commercial vessels.
Private motor yachts 40-100 meters frequently bully their way through channels. It used to get my goat. I now just take it as an exercise.
What matters is avoiding collision. I'm always happy to avoid an idiot who doesn't agree, and then I get on with my beautiful day.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Amazing. My op noted that both boats were in open ocean AND the ship was for all intents and purposes lying ahull

No one, repeat no one was in the harbor channel or even close to it

So the colreg of stand on/ give way applies here. No need to go looking for other rules

My main beef is tjat we had initiated a converstion in good time(before any acute situation was occuring) and the pilot could apparently not lower his dignity to call us back and agrre he was going to go first

By the way. Both my wife and have the IMO equivalent of USCG 200 ton unlimited and Ihold a commercial captains license so we are not colregs ignorant. We actually do know them

And for those who think we should stay away from the panama canal - we have transited twice once in each direction without any issues

Now if you want your colregs knowledge challenged try sailing into NYC harbor in heavy fog
This is what is known as “brown shorts time”. Every type of vessel you can imagine is coming at you from every direction

I read your post twice. And took the time to look up San Juan harbor. Even looked for a sea buoy where ships often wait for pilot. You said you were following the coast so it's reasonable to assume you were within a mile or so of the 1-2 buoy ---- that's "Open Ocean?"

You were there, I wasn't but from the bleachers, hard to imagine a situation where a pilot boarding a boat is open ocean. What did you expect them to do? Throttle back to 5.9 knots so as to not overtake you? Divert into outbound portion of the entrance? What exactly should they have done in your mind?

Outside of being eager to assert your rights, why didn't you divert slightly to the west side just outside the channel? There is plenty of water there and the ZoC for water depth there is very high due to commercial harbor.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Now if you want your colregs knowledge challenged try sailing into NYC harbor in heavy fog
This is what is known as “brown shorts time”. Every type of vessel you can imagine is coming at you from every direction

Totally agree with this, we frequent NY harbor a lot and it has taught me some crazy sailing skills that I didn't even learn on the race course I gotta give it to the Staten Island Ferry captains though - most always give proper sound signals in crossing situations.

[Uricanejack]

I am not familiar with Puerto Rico, New York or Panama.
Open water re Narrow Channel ?
Pilot station. Or Pilot Boarding. Most if not all are clearly marked on charts and tend to be congested or more congested with ships coming and going.
Most are considered part of Harbour Roadstead ect including the approach.

If you are not Picking up or Dropping off a Pilot. Pilot Boarding areas are best avoided.
If I wasn't using the Pilot. Regardless of what it say in Rules on The Chart or local regs.
A Gentleman wouldn't impede the passage of a Vessel which is Picking Up or Dropping a Pilot. They are usually in or near narrow channels, fairways, roadsteads harbours and sometimes TSS.

The OP clearly was aware it was a Pilot Boarding area.
The OP was informed the Pilot was boarding.
The Pilot was a Jerk. Some people just are jerks regardless of occupation. What the Pilot might have thought about the OP. Unknown.

For those who like looking **** up in rules. Go read the definitions of restricted in ability to maneuver. Scratch your head and puzzle about which operation a typical cargo vessel routinely takes part in at a Pilot Station. Never know one to bother with changing status.
Even so this was over when the alleged up yours I'm bigger rule was applied.

I wouldn't have worded it quite so bluntly. I would have been a bit more Polite. While I wondered why the OP was bugging me?

Puerto Rico is a US Territory of some kind, USCG probably have a VTS system.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

That is quite unusal - at least where I live.
My experience is that commercial shipping, including the pilots, prefer to act in accordance with the rules.

Also, a situation like this, with a bad outcome, would end that pilots carreer real fast.

Where was the bad outcome? CPA was 'less than 1/4 mile' - it wasn't Zero. He didn't run the OP down.
The pilot probably deals with small craft and small CPAs every day of the week.

And also - pilot arrives on the bridge - has to do a master/pilot info exchange - has to get the ship moving - has to get her on the leads/range - really does not want to be making broad alterations to starboard and then have to claw his way back to the east.
If I was the OP and felt the need to call that ship on VHF while it was picking up the pilot and doing about 1 knot it would have been to offer to go green to green and keep well clear.

[wholybee]

Approaching a busy harbor, sometimes 1/4 nm isn't that close. 1/4 nm is a hit or near miss if the vessels are 10 to 20 miles apart. But in closer quarters, it is a clear miss. I have had, in open ocean, a cargo ship hail me and inform me that he was giving way but intended to pass 1/4 mile to my stern. And as long as he sees me and is sure he will do that, fine with me. Within and outside San Francisco Bay, I am often much closer than 1/4 mile to cargo ships. 1/4 mile is a miss, and neither of us take action.
Even though outside the harbor and there isn't (that I see on the chart) any traffic control scheme, you should assume that cargo ships are going to closely follow a prescribed route at that point and are not able dodge smaller vessels. And of course once in the harbor, they are in a channel and you need to keep clear. Small vessels must not impede the traffic in a channel.
I might be wrong on this point, but if a harbor publishes traffic rules, I believe they supersede COLREGS. I don't recall where I read it, but when I was in San Juan in 2021, somewhere the information said that there was continuous movement of cargo and barges in the area, and that small vessels were to keep clear. That was a real issue at the anchorage, where the movement really restricted where you could anchor and kept you up at night. But I believe the rule applied to the whole harbor.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by thinwater

You really though a freighter would give way when you were both motoring? You really felt acting on that assumption was the safe choice? Hmm ....


No we didn't think he would give way when we were both motoring - read my OP and see he was practically lying ahull.


You do realize that within 1/4-mile he can barely maneuver to avoid you. You were inside your comfort zone. By that time, you were within his "extremis" zone and he probably could not avoid you. See rule 17.

He came within 1/4 mile AFTER he speeded up. Please read my OP carefully.







Pilots are known to be very blunt. Clarity is more important than politeness.
Indeed clarity is important and had he returned our call, as promised by the Master of the ship, all would have been clear. <instead he decided to just do his thing without paying attention.

Please see above - I believe you have not read my original post clearly

thank you

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Here is the definition from the Rules:

[I][INDENT](g)

But I agree, 9(b) (which I had forgotten) places burden on the OP's vessel, though he did say they were outside the entrance lanes so not really in a fairway/channel. For reference, heres the 9(b) language:

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

The terminology "burdened vessel" is obsolete. Both vessels have burdens - one to stand on and the other to give way.

Rule 9(b) doesn't come into play here. As I noted in my original post, both boats were in open ocean. Neither was in a channel nor even close to a channel.