Radio Licensing

[hellosailor]

Coot, you sound more practiced than I at that. Can you find the announcement in the FR and a pointer to the analysis for me?

When I asked last year, I found the reference to $160 in the fee schedule but they were still charging $200...apparently the schedule was announced many months before it took effect, explaining that confusion.

[coot]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Coot, you sound more practiced than I at that. Can you find the announcement in the FR and a pointer to the analysis for me?

I did a little poking around, but did not find it in the time I have available. (I found the Report and Order where the FCC decided to use the same VHF channels for AIS as the rest of the world does. Can you believe they received comments opposing that action?)

If you want to give it a shot, look at Federal Register: Main Page . It's pretty hard to find things through the online search, though, just because downloading a web page takes so long, even with broadband. I suspect it would work better to spend a day in a library that has a paper copy, even though there are tens of thousands of pages.

From wireless.fcc.gov/feesforms/ you can click on "Fee Filing Guide" for a list of fees. Page 2 cites 47 U.S.C. § 158. That section requires the FCC to charge the fees and to adjust them according to the consumer price index every two years. The FCC's decision is not subject to judicial review according to 158(b)(2) but they have to send a report to congress 90 days before they change the fee.

The weird thing is that at some point congress gave a fixed starting point for the fees, and a ship license was $35. I don't know how you could get from $35 to $200 using the CPI, though (b)(1) makes them round it up to the next $5 every time they change the fee.

Also interesting is section 159(a)(1) requires the FCC to recover costs to cover "enforcement activities, policy and rulemaking activities, user information services, and international activities." It isn't clear to me if ship's station licenses are covered by this section.

( You can see parts of 47 USC at uscode.house.gov/download/pls/47C5.txt )

Anyway, this is what I could find in about an hour. You see why lawyers are so expensive...

[Kapena]

FEES.
http://wireless.fcc.gov/feesforms/fe...ling_Guide.pdf

The total guide.

Part 13....page 11. Restricted OPERATOR permit is fee exempt.

Part 80...page 19. This is the STATION license $160.

HAM...no cost (no vanity call sign)...page 26 Part 97.

Here's the summary. Some countries require you to have a station license for your VHF, radar and EPIRB...anything that transmits. You also require an operator license. It's not a US thing, it's a foriegn country thing. The FCC will give you that license just for asking for it. No test, just ask. SSB requires a station license and a operator (RR) license Worldwide...USA ALSO!

You don't require anything if you aren't going out of country and don't have a ssb.
Mexico REQUIRES a license for VHF. You can lose your radio and be fined without one.

[CSY Man]

I got this license:
Had to answer 30 questions, not a big deal. Paid a few $ to the testing facility.




Marine Radio Operator Permit (MP)

Description
MPs are required to operate radiotelephone stations aboard certain vessels that sail the Great Lakes. They are also required to operate radiotelephone stations aboard vessels of more than 300 gross tons and vessels which carry more than six passengers for hire in the open sea or any tidewater area of the United States. They are also required to operate certain aviation radiotelephone stations and certain coast radiotelephone stations.
Qualifications
To qualify, you must:

• be a legal resident of (or otherwise eligible for employment in) the United States; and
• be able to receive and transmit spoken messages in English; and
• pass a written and/or telegraphy examination(s) as described below under Examinations.

--------------------------------------------------------
Should cover ya in any country and with any radio.

Now the STATION license is a different animal that stays with the boat and is required for anything beyond VHF and for going international.
It cost $140.00 when I got it 7 years ago.
Also got a call sign and Ships ID number to plug into the DSC equipment.

It does not follow the boat if there is an owner change.

Never been asked to show any of these tickets to either the US Coast Guard, the Bahamians, the insurance companies or the Marine Police..

[hellosailor]

"HAM...no cost (no vanity call sign)...page 26 Part 97."
Nope. You pay $14 for testing in order to get the first license, and you pay a renewal fee every time you renew it afterwards. Dunno what you found, but you can't get a free ham license, one way or another, you pay before it gets issued.
I know many people who have PAID for it, and if any of us could have gotten one for free--we would have.

Similarly on the page you cite for the Radiotelephone permit, that same page states the fee is currently $60 for a lifetime permit. About halfway down the first screen, to the left, just under the headline about ALIENS.

[Pblais]

The separate MP is not required for a pleasure yacht. It's for commercial ships required to maintain a radio. No one here except commercial charters (more than 6 passengers for hire) could ever need one for any useful purpose except aboard a commercial boat.

It won't let you do anything except what you can do already for free once you have a form 605 station license. The old way they licensed SSB on the form 537 was totally eliminated. If you got an old one it is still good until it expires.

Currently, for a Pleasure Yacht you only file one form 605, for only one fee of $160, and they only give you one piece of paper for the whole list of permits you may need along with DSC code and station ID. It is not much to look at but it is all there. You ask for the ones you will require and sub forms come up for the information. You need the EPIRB serial number but nothing else from any of the equipment. It helps if you already have a documented vessel ID too. If you later add something you go back on line and amend your 605 - for no fee. Amendments do no not restart the expiration clock. They send out an updated form in a few days. It's good for 10 years.

HAM licenses are applied separate through the testing center after you pass the exam(s). Fees for testing vary depending on where you go. Technician and General Class exams are multiple choice only. Extra Class still has the old Morse code requirement (it never changed) and the test is not that easy but still multiple choice. With a little study the Technician exam is not hard at all. The General Class just takes a bit more effort if you don't already have an electronics background. It's only simple math and the basic nature of electronics and of course all the regulations.

[btrayfors]

The Restricted Radio Operators Permit (RR) is NOT fee exempt. It's $60.

It's easy to see why Kapena though it was fee exempt, because the FCC has made the whole licensing thing so complicated you need a Philadelphia lawyer to sort it out.

But if you read carefully the page he cited (it's actually page 3 of the document, but page 11 of the PDF file) you'll see that the one that's named ALMOST the same which IS fee-exempt is the GDMSS Restricted Operator license.

I just got off the phone with the FCC re: a new RR license, since my original one was issued back before they were valid for lifetime. They've got things so balled up that I've pretty much decided to just go for the whole package (1st Class Radiotelegraph, General Operators, Restricted Operators, etc.) and get as many as I can for the $60 all at once...if they'll let me.

Jeez, there ought to be a simpler way.

Bill

[hellosailor]

Bill-
I'm glad to find that I'm not the only alleged gentlemen and scholar who finds the FCC's publications to be gibberish at times.
If they'll really send you the whole bag for $60,
PLEASE DO LET US KNOW!

I've just got the feeling they'll want $60 each, and their pubs about which license allow what operations with which overlaps...obviously were written by enemy agents.<G>

[CSY Man]

The separate MP is not required for a pleasure yacht. It's for commercial ships required to maintain a radio. No one here except commercial charters (more than 6 passengers for hire) could ever need one for any useful purpose except aboard a commercial boat.

Not required for a pleasure yacht, but if the cost is less than the $60.00 mentioned above, and if ya wanne charter yer boat, or take a skipper job to fill the cruising kitty now and then, this ticket seems like a good idea.

I sure never regreted getting it:
Read the book for 2 hours, take the test and that is it.
(You may even learn something useful... )

[Pblais]

Not required for a pleasure yacht, but if the cost is less than the $60.00 mentioned above, and if ya wanne charter yer boat, or take a skipper job to fill the cruising kitty now and then, this ticket seems like a good idea.

Adding extra commercial options really won't cost you more later. They do even transfer if you are on another boat and that might be important for some. If you don't expect to act as a skipper on another boat and are on your own boat then adding the two HAM classes seems worthwhile given the low cost and the fact than many SSB radios can be updated to include some of the HAM bands. So on your own boat you can be licensed for almost everything easily. The HAM Extra Class is the only thing that really takes some work. It is supposed to be that way.

[Pblais]

The Restricted Radio Operators Permit (RR) is NOT fee exempt. It's $60.

It's a commercial license. All the commercial licenses cost extra money each. You don't need one for anything what so ever on your own boat when not engaged in a commercial activity or required under law. If you want a commervcial ticket then of course it can be useful but not if you don't need it.

As bad as it seems my neighbor has an AM radio station and files the same forms plus a couple more. When he added an FM station to the tower he had to move the transmitter 97 feet after they computed the interference ptentials. Moving a 6,000 watt transmitter tower isn't cheap. Moving it 97 feet was perhaps beyond rediculous. He fought and then moved it. Somehow the degree of outrage you feel means nothing. Maybe it's true.

[btrayfors]

Paul,

Not sure what you're smokin' down there in Hayes, tonite :-)

The Restricted Radio Operators Permit, indeed, is required aboard your own boat if you go abroad OR if you have a marine SSB installation. In these circumstances, it is not optional.

Here's the language from the FCC Website (page entitled, "Who Needs a Commercial Operator License?"
FCC - Who Needs A Commercial Operator License?

Quote

Radio Operations

You need a commercial radio operator license to operate the following:

Ship radio stations if:

• the vessel carries more than six passengers for hire; or
• the radio operates on medium or high frequencies; or
• the ship sails to foreign ports; or
• the ship is larger than 300 gross tons and is required to carry a radio station for safety purposes.

etc. etc Unquote

The second item refers to marine SSB radios, the third item to ANY radio, including VHF, if the ship sails to foreign ports (which would include, e.g., Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas, the Caribbean countries, etc.

I know it's very misleading to list these under "commercial licenses" when they're, in part, talking about private yachts, but the FCC has never been a stickler for precise language.

Bottom line: if you go abroad, or if you have marine SSB radio(s) onboard, you need the Restricted Radio Operators License in addition to a Ship's Station License.

Bill

[CSY Man]

It's a commercial license. All the commercial licenses cost extra money each. You don't need one for anything what so ever on your own boat when not engaged in a commercial activity or required under law. If you want a commervcial ticket then of course it can be useful but not if you don't need it.

The Restricket one is not commercial:

The Marine Radio Operators Permit is required on commercial vessel, but my point is:

If it is easy to obtain, and cheap...Why not get it...?

Perhaps I am a License Freak, having more tickets in my pocket that God, but if ya are un-employed one day, the ticket to make money is right there...

(Went to school years ago and got my truck ticket, including semis, 22 wheelers, city and tour busses and anything that could roll on a public road up to 100,000 lbs...Easy to get and no skin of my back..)

Bunch of airplane tickets as well, and my USCG ticket, Scuba tickets, etc.

Never been starving and that radio ticket we are talking about is sooo easy and cheap, why not get it and if it makes ya money or keep ya out of trouble in 10 years from now, it is worth it.

[coot]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"HAM...no cost (no vanity call sign)...page 26 Part 97."
Nope. You pay $14 for testing in order to get the first license, and you pay a renewal fee every time you renew it afterwards. Dunno what you found, but you can't get a free ham license, one way or another, you pay before it gets issued.
I know many people who have PAID for it, and if any of us could have gotten one for free--we would have.

In the US, amateur radio exams are given by volunteers who are accredited by a VEC organization. There is no charge for the license, but the organization conducting the exam may charge a fee to recover expenses.

ARRL sponsored exam sessions cost $14 per session, no matter how many exams you take. ARRL sponsors a lot of exams, leading to the common belief that an amateur license cost $14.

If you would like to get an amateur license (or upgrade) for free, just take your exam from another VEC that does not charge the fee. For example, in Baltimore, the Baltimore Amateur Radio Club and the Historical Electronics Museum Amateur Radio Club both offer free exams. BARC Training & Testing Information

Renewal is free, and can be done via the ULS on the FCC web site. ARRL will fill out the form for you for a small fee.

Originally Posted by Pblais

Technician and General Class exams are multiple choice only. Extra Class still has the old Morse code requirement (it never changed) and the test is not that easy but still multiple choice.

Actually, the morse code requirement was dropped for all license classes this year. There are currently two petitions for reconsideration before the FCC (i.e. somebody asking the FCC to reverse the decision), but neither presents a very good case. ARRLWeb: FCC Invites "Oppositions" on Two "Morse Proceeding" Reconsideration Petitions

[Pblais]

The Restricted Radio Operators Permit, indeed, is required aboard your own boat if you go abroad OR if you have a marine SSB installation. In these circumstances, it is not optional.

It's included in the form 605 now. You just check a box. Form 537 was eliminated from the system and that used to be whay you needed.