Re-documenting with missing POs in the "chain of ownership"

[Island Time O25]

This may have been asked before but I haven't found a thread with answers. These are the facts.

My last boat purchased had state registration and was re-registered with the same state. The actual seller was a boat dealer and the PO was unavailable for any information re: her previous CG documentation. The boat's CG doc. number search shows last year of documentation as 2002. There were at least 2 or 3 other owners since then other than the dealer who signed my purchase papers. So I have a name of PO who last document in 2002 (but no other info on him) the name and the info of the dealer who sold her to me and the name and info of the last registered owner who sold it to the dealer. But I have nothing to document ownership between 2002 and the last known PO.

I know that the CG requires a "chain of ownership from builder to the documenting owner" to document initially. But do they also require that chain to be proved in case of a lapse of already documented chain of ownership. I am not sure if I can find all the POs since 2002 or if that would make sense to spend time and effort searching for them. And the 2002 owner (the last owner to have it documented) has a very common first and last name so I am not sure how easy or difficult it would be to find him (without any additional info) and ask for the subsequent owner, etc.

The question then is - has anyone been in a similar situation i.e. either documenting with a lapse in owners or, if required, chasing after the POs and what were your results? Thanks in advance for any info.

[ur2slo]

I just finished this year documenting mine...........Just make application (edit :As original issue) to CG and deal with state use tax issues where your located.

It did take them 4 months to process, since the day I went online the site was down, so in all my glorious knowledge, I figured it would be just as easy to send it in by USPS..

BOY was that a mistake! Do you kno I believe that there are only 3 people dealing with mail in applications! It took so long I was ready to scream.

I applied late July, received COG 10/29

FWIW...........

[zeehag]

this is why i paid documentation services to get my documentation completed on my new purchases. even this one.
for all i used dona jenkins.

[Island Time O25]

All the state matters are already dealt with incl. taxes, etc. But going forward I'd like to document and later to take it off the state registration.

Was your boat previously documented but you re-documented her as a new issue? Were you issued a new number?

My understanding of the "new documentation" of a used boat or where the CG certificate from PO is not submitted - that in such cases they are asking for the chain of ownership from the builder's certificate all the way to the last PO who sold it to you. Or am I reading the rules wrong?

Can you give me play by play of your actual situation? I.e. what was actually required on your part to document a vessel with only the latest PO of many previous ones, if that was the case.

I last documented my other boat in 2010, and other than the usual delays and one typo on my part in the application itself, it went smoothly. I even reached by phone some people there and one of them actually gave me the correct answers. But I understand that since then they are on a shoestring budget and I don't have time to fruitlessly be on hold or keep chasing someone there who would know the correct answers.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by zeehag

this is why i paid documentation services to get my documentation completed on my new purchases. even this one.
for all i used dona jenkins.

Well, I look at it as similar to learning to change the oil or to replace the alternator or some such issue where big guns are not required. Besides I already successfully documented one boat and copyrighted one hull for my boat builder friend (a patent attorney was going to do it for $1,000 and that was with "professional courtesy discount" as his firm charges $2,000 for such work) so I am pretty sure I can do this one too. I am just trying to shorten the time by not making mistakes which would unnecessary prolong the process. I don't have to document as this boat will not be traveling to foreign ports, except may be the Bahamas, but that's a "nice to have" kinda issue for me.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by ur2slo

I just finished this year documenting mine...........Just make application (edit :As original issue) to CG and deal with state use tax issues where your located.

It did take them 4 months to process, since the day I went online the site was down, so in all my glorious knowledge, I figured it would be just as easy to send it in by USPS..

BOY was that a mistake! Do you kno I believe that there are only 3 people dealing with mail in applications! It took so long I was ready to scream.

I applied late July, received COG 10/29

FWIW...........

Late July to 10/29 is actually 3 months which sounds about right these days. Years ago they would do it in about a month or less but then their budgets and staff were cut. And I am not sure if it would be faster in case of online application as the same people are reviewing them as well.

[Shrew]

CG Documentation and State Registration are mutually exclusive topics. Even if the boat is Documented, it may still require a registration. In many cases a boat might require multiple state registrations. That is dictated by each individual state and has nothing to do with CG documentation.

A boat doesn't need to be registered in any state to be documented and doesn't need to be documented to be registered. Many states don't have titles and only go by the registration.

In your case, it sounds like the owner in 2002 documented the boat. The boat then changed ownership several times and was not documented by the subsequent owners. This is common as most don't have a need to document their vessel.

[Island Time O25]

I think I found my answers. On the CG site they have a document dated 2014 which I don't think was there in 2010 when I last documented and it spells out what I need to re-document a previously documented vessel and it turns out to be pretty straightforward (although I'll know better when I actually do it). Thanks to all who chimed-in in this thread.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Shrew

CG Documentation and State Registration are mutually exclusive topics. Even if the boat is Documented, it may still require a registration. In many cases a boat might require multiple state registrations. That is dictated by each individual state and has nothing to do with CG documentation.

A boat doesn't need to be registered in any state to be documented and doesn't need to be documented to be registered. Many states don't have titles and only go by the registration.

In your case, it sounds like the owner in 2002 documented the boat. The boat then changed ownership several times and was not documented by the subsequent owners. This is common as most don't have a need to document their vessel.

Yes I'm aware of your points. My current state, MA, does not require registration of documented vessels, only that the sales tax be paid. My hopefully future state, FL, allows for very inexpensive "antique" boat registration (i.e. boats over 30 years old) which is needed after 90 days in the state. But thanks for your input.

BTW my understanding of my situation, as per the CG site, is that all I need to document a previously documented boat is a copy of my state title, my notarized bill of sale from the PO (who was a dealer) and the applicable CG fees.

[Cheechako]

I have not had to show PO info on vessels I documented, whether previously documented or just state registered. But haven't done it in over 10 years.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I have not had to show PO info on vessels I documented, whether previously documented or just state registered. But haven't done it in over 10 years.

Yes, that's also how I read this latest explanation on CG site - that already state registered previously documented vessel only needs to show her current owner's state title or if from a non-title state (like Maine) or not yet state registered state registration and a bill of sale from PO.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Yes I'm aware of your points. My current state, MA, does not require registration of documented vessels, only that the sales tax be paid. My hopefully future state, FL, allows for very inexpensive "antique" boat registration (i.e. boats over 30 years old) which is needed after 90 days in the state. But thanks for your input.

BTW my understanding of my situation, as per the CG site, is that all I need to document a previously documented boat is a copy of my state title, my notarized bill of sale from the PO (who was a dealer) and the applicable CG fees.

Once a boat is documented, the documentation number stays with that boat, even if it is not renewed and lapses for a period of time. Use that number from previous documentation on your reinstatement application.

That said, if your documentation lapses, you need to use the form for "new" documentation. You can't use the "renewal" form for reinstating documentation on a boat that has lapsed for 60 days or more (or something like that, might be 90).

When filling out that form simply change whatever information you need to; boat name, owner, address, etc. With a lapse in information about the ownership chain, it probably would not hurt to include a state title if you have one. At worst they would ignore it.

While new/renewal documentation takes months, they are pretty good about responding promptly to applications that are incomplete or inadequate with an explanation of what is needed to correct.

[leftbrainstuff]

When we purchased our current vessel our marine documentation specialist found an undocumented lien.

This lien was nothing other than a failure by a thrice removed financial institution to adequately manage their own paper trail.

We then agreed to fund an escrow until the PO resolved the lien. We would not have realized this without the help of our documentation specialist.

We are Aussies so the vessel was to be deregistered by the USCG so we could transfer registry to the Aussie ships registry. Not caught this would have caused a myriad of issues.

Lacking the chain of evidence for determining provenance places the burden of identifying liens onto the buyer. This is a seller issue so best dealt with by them.

If you complete the sale before resolution then you have no leverage over the seller.

[wunderluster]

You can order an abstract of title from the NVDC for $25 and get it sent to your email. It will list all previous owners and any liens. Anyone can do it you don't need a documentation specialist. The people at the NVDC are very helpful on the phone. They would rather make sure you know the forms to send in than to have to redo paperwork. Give them a call. I've never had to wait very long on hold.

[Dougtiff]

Caught between a rock and a hard spot, as a last resort, you can register with the DMV, this gives you clear tittle in the eyes of the D.H.S., and they will give you Documentation, i know because i just went thru this process.