Right to safe harbour

[capn_billl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva_Reefs

Apparently these reefs are part of an ongoing struggle, and Tonga really wants to assert authority over them.

[IslandInfedel]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Minerva Reefs are outside Tonga’s EEZ https://www.marineregions.org/gazett...etails&id=8448 but one of their Special Fishery Management Areas http://www.fao.org/3/a-i7278e.pdf. So they have a right to manage visiting yachts to Minerva Reefs at least from a conservation point of view.

And “bully into bad weather”, that wasn’t bad weather. Not pleasant, but certainly not dangerous, and still suitable for sail repair.

As JP Cate said, Minerva Reefs are not a suitable spot to sit out a storm - the reef is under water at high tide and there’s a fair bit of surge coming into the lagoons during heightened trade winds, let alone a storm with significant low pressure raising the water level.

Tonga has zero right to limit boats in international waters, if it’s outside of their EEZ it is international waters, no matter how much their little king stomps his feet.

“ An exclusive economic zone (EEZ) is a sea zone prescribed by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea over which a sovereign state has special rights regarding the exploration and use of marine resources, including energy production from water and wind. It stretches from the baseline out to 200 nautical miles (nmi) from its coast. In colloquial usage, the term may include the continental shelf. The term does not include either the territorial sea or the continental shelf beyond the 200 nmi limit. The difference between the territorial sea and the exclusive economic zone is that the first confers full sovereignty over the waters, whereas the second is merely a "sovereign right" which refers to the coastal state's rights below the surface of the sea. The surface waters, as can be seen in the map, are international waters.”

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by IslandInfedel

Tonga has zero right to limit boats in international waters, (...)

Just as that English Queen has zero right to dictate mentality in NZ.


And yet.


You failed to notice the reef is disputed between Fiji and Tonga. NOT Tonga and NZ.


They were asked to leave, they should have left. It is not their backyard.


With their cocky attitude, they only made it worse for any cruisers that will stop by in the same spot in the future.


It is Tonga (Fiji says it is Fiji), not NZ. You are asked to leave, LEAVE.


I, frankly, would:
- ask,
- beg,
- negotiate.


Not ANTAGONIZE.


I am not sure how information that the boat was 50 years old and wood makes any difference. Our boat is 50 years old grp. And so what.


barnakiel

[barnakiel]

Aside from my negative view of some sailor's attitude to respecting the fact that smaller countries are as much countries as bigger countries.


Yes, I believe they (the sailors) had a point in requesting permission to sit out the blow, if there was a blow outside.


b.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Not ANTAGONIZE.

Seriously! That captain immediately started with an attitude. I understand you can be tired and maybe needing rest but immediately launching into a conversation like that is a non-starter.

While its totally possible that Tonga has no claim to that area, if they did decide to impound the vessel the owner might eventually win but be financially bankrupt defending the charges. From a practical standpoint its just easier to obey the power in front of you.

[Intrepid59]

Some sources will say you have a 72 hour grace period, while others claim it is as long as you need to fix, wait out bad weather, etc.

The relevant articles are Articles 17, 18, and 19, beginning with The Right of Innocent Passage, in Section 3. Pages 30-31.

https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf

[denverd0n]

All this talk about "international waters" is just nonsense. Tonga claims the reef as belonging to them. If it DOES belong to them, then it is NOT international waters. It is THEIR waters, and they are fully entitled to assert their authority there.


Until the dispute between them and Fiji is resolved one way or the other, we don't know exactly whose waters it is. Once the dispute is resolved (IF it ever is) then it STILL will not be international waters. It will be the waters of either Tonga or Fiji.


In any case, anyone with any sense should know that you are likely to run into issues like this if you anchor in disputed territory. That's the way that international disputes work, and have always worked.


What about "safe harbour"? That only applies under conditions of force majeure. So what is force majeure? It is extraordinary conditions that are outside of your control and cannot reasonably be anticipated. Is it reasonable to anticipate that on an ocean crossing one might encounter bad weather and equipment failures? Well, DUH!


Now, if the weather is significantly worse than one would normally anticipate, or the equipment failure is of the type that could not normally be anticipated, then maybe force majeure would apply. But not otherwise.


I wasn't there, of course, but from what I have seen and read, I do not believe the captain could legitimately claim force majeure.

[ArmyDaveNY]

I watched the video that recorded the confrontation between the patrol boat and the sailing vessel. What struck me was that the cat that filmed/recorded the confrontation was allowed to stay yet the NZ vessel was told to leave. I wonder if the attitude of the captain is what caused that or if there were other issues. Certainly the captain who was given permission to stay handled the situation nicely and didn't present any attitude.

[ArmyDaveNY]

I went to the yacht Windora's website and there is more to the story. In short, they were allowed to say for another day thanks to some efforts from NZ.

Per their website:
"Great sailing saw us arriving at North Minerva reef on the 5th July. We don't usually fish now but were hanging out for something fresh and as we approached the reef Phil caught this delicious Yellowfin tuna. There were 2 other boats in the reef which had arrived from NZ and were on their way to Fiji which had opened to cruisers.

The next day the Tongan Navy turned up and ordered us to sea. It was blowing very strong from the south and Phil said he wasn't going to leave. They came over in an inflatable and, keeping a safe distance, had a long chat, eventually allowing us another day. We were ordered to stay on our boats which was okay considering the lousy weather. The next day was flat calm and the other yachts motored on their way while we set about doing more sail repairs. We realized we wouldn't be finished by the deadline of noon, so Phil contacted our son and his brother in NZ who got on our case as the Navy was threatening to tow us out to sea. They flew a drone over us at one stage which felt pretty invasive. Phil grabbed a flare to blow it out of the sky so I called them up on the VHF and suggested they move it away quickly!!! Noon arrived and the captain ordered us to sea, Phil asked for 3 more hours which they refused and they said they were coming over to remove us. The High Commissioner in Tonga had been in touch that morning and NZ Rescue Centre who had told us to let off the EPIRB if we needed to, so Phil did that. Immediately the High Commissioner phoned and told us we could stay for 2 more days and to call up the Navy captain to tell him to contact the Commander back in Tonga. After that, they left us alone, but stayed close by. It was all pretty awful. Next morning we woke to SE winds so left at daybreak, followed by the Navy until we were past South Minerva. NZ were great, making it possible to stay and do our repairs before tackling the final 900 miles to Opua."

[IslandInfedel]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

I watched the video that recorded the confrontation between the patrol boat and the sailing vessel. What struck me was that the cat that filmed/recorded the confrontation was allowed to stay yet the NZ vessel was told to leave. I wonder if the attitude of the captain is what caused that or if there were other issues. Certainly the captain who was given permission to stay handled the situation nicely and didn't present any attitude.

Attitude isn’t good, but I wouldn’t really be pushed into conditions I didn’t feel were safe by a Tonga boat who has exactly the same authority in international waters as I do.

Could also be the flag and the blow back they think they might get for their illegal actions picking on a small boat in international waters, combined with how likely they thought the crew could be bullied.


Again, will Tonga really fire upon a small cruising sailboat who is outside of their EEZ/in international waters?

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

I went to the yacht Windora's website and there is more to the story. In short, they were allowed to say for another day thanks to some efforts from NZ.

Per their website:
"Great sailing saw us arriving at North Minerva reef on the 5th July. We don't usually fish now but were hanging out for something fresh and as we approached the reef Phil caught this delicious Yellowfin tuna. There were 2 other boats in the reef which had arrived from NZ and were on their way to Fiji which had opened to cruisers.

The next day the Tongan Navy turned up and ordered us to sea. It was blowing very strong from the south and Phil said he wasn't going to leave. They came over in an inflatable and, keeping a safe distance, had a long chat, eventually allowing us another day. We were ordered to stay on our boats which was okay considering the lousy weather. The next day was flat calm and the other yachts motored on their way while we set about doing more sail repairs. We realized we wouldn't be finished by the deadline of noon, so Phil contacted our son and his brother in NZ who got on our case as the Navy was threatening to tow us out to sea. They flew a drone over us at one stage which felt pretty invasive. Phil grabbed a flare to blow it out of the sky so I called them up on the VHF and suggested they move it away quickly!!! Noon arrived and the captain ordered us to sea, Phil asked for 3 more hours which they refused and they said they were coming over to remove us. The High Commissioner in Tonga had been in touch that morning and NZ Rescue Centre who had told us to let off the EPIRB if we needed to, so Phil did that. Immediately the High Commissioner phoned and told us we could stay for 2 more days and to call up the Navy captain to tell him to contact the Commander back in Tonga. After that, they left us alone, but stayed close by. It was all pretty awful. Next morning we woke to SE winds so left at daybreak, followed by the Navy until we were past South Minerva. NZ were great, making it possible to stay and do our repairs before tackling the final 900 miles to Opua."

Exactly

They know they have zero authority and just rely on bully tactics, which is why they folded like a cheap suit when they stood up against them.

[Mike Banks]

Fishing.

Nations will pay big bucks for a "Licence to plunder" oceanic and coastal fishing stocks.

They can also be "Leased" to other nations (Australia, in what I personally regard as an exercise in an excess of anilingual diplomacy, recently leased its northernmost deep water strategic port of Darwin to China for 99 years, for what militarily amounts to PEANUTS)

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by zboss

Seriously! That captain immediately started with an attitude. I understand you can be tired and maybe needing rest but immediately launching into a conversation like that is a non-starter.

While its totally possible that Tonga has no claim to that area, if they did decide to impound the vessel the owner might eventually win but be financially bankrupt defending the charges. From a practical standpoint its just easier to obey the power in front of you.

We don't know how the conversation started... we are only seeing what Zatara has chosen to show us.....

What we do know is that the recording and making public other people's radio comms is illegal....

[IslandInfedel]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

We don't know how the conversation started... we are only seeing what Zatara has chosen to show us.....

What we do know is that the recording and making public other people's radio comms is illegal....

Can you cite where it’s illegal to record standard used VHF radio frequencies in international waters?

Lest we violate the privacy of a armed ship bullying sailboats in international waters lol

[NevilleCat]

Ha! It's quite amusing really, and Zatara found it so.
"A 50 yr old wooden vessel" ...that is probably one of the strongest and heavily built boats I have ever seen. Check out their refit video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEkJ1SbwyrY

I am rather surprised with the apparent lack of diplomacy on both sides though. It seems odd that Phil and family have gone thru a 6 year circumnavigation without highly developed diplomatic skills.
Perhaps it was tiredness from the extraordinary voyage from Panama?
Or maybe this ongoing dispute over control of Minerva is grating in New Zealand and he felt it was time yachtsmen pushed a point as to whether their "Special Fishery Management" control gives them the right to order vessels -which are not undertaking fishing or otherwise causing ecological damage- to leave?
Whatever, it seems antagonistic at the least.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by IslandInfedel

Can you cite where it’s illegal to record standard used VHF radio frequencies in international waters?

Lest we violate the privacy of a armed ship bullying sailboats in international waters lol

ITU Regulations... Vol 1, 2016, page 256... secrecy....

.......

18.4 § 2 The holder of a licence is required to preserve the secrecy of telecommunications, as provided in the relevant provisions of the Constitution and the Convention. Moreover, the licence shall mention, specifically or by reference, that if the station includes a receiver, the interception of radiocommunication correspondence, other than that which the station is authorized to receive, is forbidden, and that in cases where such correspondence is involuntarily received, it shall not be reproduced, nor communicated to third parties, nor used for any purpose, and even its existence shall not be disclosed