Right to safe harbour

[IslandInfedel]

Originally Posted by SV DINGO

i have not yet heard one argument here so i like to put it into the pot.

Except for the FLARE , what type of weapons did the NZ boat carry????

I always find that when you are in the middle of nowhere the common sense rule should be applied and to me that means , who has the bigger boat with the bigger firepower and do i feel i want to challenge a patrol boat with more engine power , most likely built in steel not wood with a machine gun at the front in my 50 year old wooden boat?????????

In this case you just got a stupid kiwi with a **** attitude which thought that NZ Flag is superior to all others. Sadly a mistake that not only Kiwi's make from time to time.

So as a US boat this is a common point of issue, carry a appropriate armament without limiting travel, sadly these two concepts dont mesh well, Tonga is a good example, when you have tons of bravado and little skill with a rifle you dont want to come up against ANY person with so much as a old 30-30. There are things you can improvise, but overall the main reason little tyrants like Tonga play these games is because they think they have a monopoly on force, and for most cruisers they do.

Lucky they likely wont push this too far, they know if they fire on a American/GB etc vessel the outcome will be poor for the occupant, and after their home nation finds out some Tonga boat shot up a sailboat, well it aint looking too good for Tonga ether, especially if it was recorded and went onto youtube

This is why it is SOOOOO IMPORTANT to document and upload all Tongas transgressions, hopefully Australia will see that arming these people is VERY dangerous for maritime travelers, many of them their own, and at the worst at least shows that when these Tonga navy folks get someone killed it cant be called a isolated incident.

All of these events should be forwarded to the UN as well as Australia, further arming this nation, or giving them more authority at sea, seems to be at odds with the values of peaceful peoples and free travel and safe harbor at sea

[JPA Cate]

There are some people who are writing fairly hatefully about the Tongans here. Honestly, I'm shocked! Experience has shown us that at least the ones we've met are friendly and generous and not hung up in political power.

Precedent has the Minerva Reefs as Tonga's to protect, at this point in time. [Some of the past history has included big (cruisers) boats filling their freezers with fish from that Tongan fishing ground, which was viewed as taking too much, like Capt. Cook in HI, taking too much advantage of hospitality.] They've a pretty good case to need their conservation area there. If the patrol vessel is tasked with moving people on, that's what they'd do. It is not bullying. Is is not really free international waters.

zboss wrote, "If we did get into trouble at sea it's likely that these fine Navy folks would be responding to our distress so we at least owe them to benefit of showing some courtesy and respect." He's right, Tonga is the closest source of help, and it is one of the patrol boats that would be tasked to come help.

Imo, the Windora skipper got off on the wrong foot with the patrol boat, which is probably the source of all the bad feeling. The Windora was headed for NZ, and wanted to wait for the southerly to get more east in it, to make the sail easier. Sail mending is said to have been in process. Asking for help or tolerance is way better than demanding it.

I suppose it is possible that the problems with Zatara set up the problems for Windora. If that were the case, it would be a very fast "dirty wake" incident, indeed. And possibly, also a result of looking down on brown people...a heritage from the British caste system, or possibly simple xenophobia.

As Boatie said, permissions are revocable.

Ann

[StuM]

Originally Posted by IslandInfedel

Tonga has ZERO authority over that reef,

Constantly repeating your opinion doesn't make it so.


As an aside, 10 years ago the Fijian navy ejected several vessels from Minerva while asserting their authority over the same reefs.

[IslandInfedel]

Originally Posted by StuM

Constantly repeating your opinion doesn't make it so.


As an aside, 10 years ago the Fijian navy ejected several vessels from Minerva while asserting their authority over the same reefs.

No, but a ruler and a chart do make it so

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by IslandInfedel

No, but a ruler and a chart do make it so

That also is incorrect - there are plenty of EEZs that are not based solely on distance from primary landmass.

Common usage as described by several posters and some legitimate standing (the Fishery Special Management Area), disputed claims notwithstanding, demonstrate that Tonga considers the Minerva Reefs theirs to patrol and control access. The current Covid situation adds more urgency and tension to their activities.

Both sides were responsible for the uncomfortable situation. But there was a heck of a lot of interaction and background to the incident that was not shown in the Zatara video. Enough that your simplistic analysis does not have justification.

Why the hate-on for Tongans generally for the poor behaviour of one vessel? That did not do anything untoward in the end. Do you apply this standard to every other nationality?

[IslandInfedel]

Originally Posted by fxykty

That also is incorrect - there are plenty of EEZs that are not based solely on distance from primary landmass.

Common usage as described by several posters and some legitimate standing (the Fishery Special Management Area), disputed claims notwithstanding, demonstrate that Tonga considers the Minerva Reefs theirs to patrol and control access. The current Covid situation adds more urgency and tension to their activities.

Both sides were responsible for the uncomfortable situation. But there was a heck of a lot of interaction and background to the incident that was not shown in the Zatara video. Enough that your simplistic analysis does not have justification.

Why the hate-on for Tongans generally for the poor behaviour of one vessel? That did not do anything untoward in the end. Do you apply this standard to every other nationality?

Poor behavior from one vessel? So all these illegal claims and bullying was from one Tonga vessel?

So you’re from the same nation who arms Tonga with the vessels they use to bully cruisers?

There has been NOTHING that shows Tonga has a single claim to the reef, I don’t get why some are carrying water for that nation, err “kingdom”?

[jstrru402]

Whats the difference between Tonga's relationship to Minerva Reef and what China is doing in the South China Sea?

Would all you Tonga defenders feel differently if they filled in the atolls with dirt and started building on them? if you would, why? it's theirs to do as they wish in your book.

[Uncle Bob]

The constant bashing and ridicule of the Tongan peoples and their government by a couple of ill informed, or perhaps ignorant, argementive people here on an international sailing forum does absolutely nothing to foster or further good relations with Tonga.
We are all enduring difficult times and as the world reopens, as it will, this dirty water will unfortunately linger and probably adversely affect those future cruisers that wish to stop there in their travels, all to what end?

[SV DINGO]

Originally Posted by IslandInfedel

So as a US boat this is a common point of issue, carry a appropriate armament without limiting travel, sadly these two concepts dont mesh well, Tonga is a good example, when you have tons of bravado and little skill with a rifle you dont want to come up against ANY person with so much as a old 30-30. There are things you can improvise, but overall the main reason little tyrants like Tonga play these games is because they think they have a monopoly on force, and for most cruisers they do.

Lucky they likely wont push this too far, they know if they fire on a American/GB etc vessel the outcome will be poor for the occupant, and after their home nation finds out some Tonga boat shot up a sailboat, well it aint looking too good for Tonga ether, especially if it was recorded and went onto youtube

This is why it is SOOOOO IMPORTANT to document and upload all Tongas transgressions, hopefully Australia will see that arming these people is VERY dangerous for maritime travelers, many of them their own, and at the worst at least shows that when these Tonga navy folks get someone killed it cant be called a isolated incident.

All of these events should be forwarded to the UN as well as Australia, further arming this nation, or giving them more authority at sea, seems to be at odds with the values of peaceful peoples and free travel and safe harbor at sea

All i can say is that most likely you are a Yank. That is totally stupid what you said and is typical grandstanding . Tongan people are very gentle even that they dont always look like it but their nature is non aggressive. Show some respect for small countries and stop that type of intimidating posts.

It is with great sadness that i have to say this because there are other Americans that have in fact seen the world and met other Nations and they are not commenting in that way but understand that by intimidating and being aggressive you will only ever get a cold shoulder.

I hope i dont ever sail into a bay and find you next to me , i would move on.

[weavis]

Guys. You are entitled to whatever thoughts you feel appropriate.

THIS IS A CRUISING FORUM.

Lets get back to cruising without the political thinking...

Thread closed.