Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

[Jim Cate]

Hitting and sinking a single handler should be a free pass to both the watch keeper and free of liability for the ship and it’s owners.

Sorry, Hurricane, but that's kinda off base IMO. Let us consider that most of the single handers that we are considering are in sailing boats, and as such are normally the stand on vessel in a crossing situation with a ship. The lack of a lookout does not change that relationship until the situation devolves to the point where the sailboat should have taken evasive action to avoid collision, having seen that the ship was failing to do so.

So, giving carte blance to the watchstander on the ship, just because the vessel he ran down was a single hander is a bit theatrical, no?

Jim

[StuM]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

The rule says "at all times" - definitely not "continuous". Remember, any merchant ship will post an appropriate watch "at all times", whether at anchor, in dock, even in graving dock, so make sure you do likewise: even in your marina berth you are subject to Rule 5

...

What a croc of sh**.

Yep, definitely a crock of sh**


Rule 1(a)

These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.


Is a marina berth or graving dock "navigable by seagoing vessels"?

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Sorry, Hurricane, but that's kinda off base IMO. Let us consider that most of the single handers that we are considering are in sailing boats, and as such are normally the stand on vessel in a crossing situation with a ship. The lack of a lookout does not change that relationship until the situation devolves to the point where the sailboat should have taken evasive action to avoid collision, having seen that the ship was failing to do so.

So, giving carte blance to the watchstander on the ship, just because the vessel he ran down was a single hander is a bit theatrical, no?

Jim

I don't expect to change the world with my opinion.
I do see a big difference between the ship or watch keeper making a poor job of it and hitting a sail boat.
The sailboats stand on or give way status is irrelevant. The sleeping sailor is just plain negligent and should bear by the greater blame.

If the guy on the ship goes to bed and leaves the dog on watch 50ty 50ty would be fair.
So no not theatrical just a reasonable point of view on culpability.

I gave a specific example, I don't disagree the Chilean Submarine should have done better. At least they were trying the other guy was asleep or down bellow.
My opinion he should bear the greater blame by far.

As I have acknowledged I also sail single handed. If I become fatigued and have a collision as a result. This would be primarily my own fault.

The idea other vessels should be held accountable for hitting a vessel with no lookout. is not fair. even if they should have spotted the sailing vessel and kept clear.

Bottom line we should all be responsible for our own vessels safety.

Actually. I though my comparison to drink driving, or drinking while sailing would cause more offence. Yet I think its also a valid comparison.

Bear in mind your sleeping single hander may hit an other sail boat (who if single handed would be equally at fault) or a fishing vessel either of which he may be the stand on vessel for.
I cant say I've ever heard of it happening. Other than the Volvo guys hitting and sinking the fishing vessel. At least they were on watch. Not asleep.

So my conclusion. Go ahead and sail single handed and go to sleep if you feel like it. Nobody is going to stop you or cite you or do anything about it.

If you get hit. Accept its your own fault.
The other party with a half decent layer should be able to convince the courts to agree.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by StuM

Yep, definitely a crock of sh**


Rule 1(a)

These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.


Is a marina berth or graving dock "navigable by seagoing vessels"?

You must be in a marina where no one goes out or comes in.. Dock Queen Heaven..
So after 888 posts we get it..
Folk who need crew resent folks who dont.

[Olddan1943]

The maritime courts will hear the argument, look at the evidence and then make a decision.
What we are doing here is useless.

There was a case of a US Sub surfacing under a ship. Never did hear the outcome.
During the height of the cold war, subs never surfaced except for leaving and entering their port of assignment.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

I don't expect to change the world with my opinion.
I do see a big difference between the ship or watch keeper making a poor job of it and hitting a sail boat.
The sailboats stand on or give way status is irrelevant. The sleeping sailor is just plain negligent and should bear by the greater blame.

If the guy on the ship goes to bed and leaves the dog on watch 50ty 50ty would be fair.
So no not theatrical just a reasonable point of view on culpability.

I gave a specific example, I don't disagree the Chilean Submarine should have done better. At least they were trying the other guy was asleep or down bellow.
My opinion he should bear the greater blame by far.

As I have acknowledged I also sail single handed. If I become fatigued and have a collision as a result. This would be primarily my own fault.

The idea other vessels should be held accountable for hitting a vessel with no lookout. is not fair. even if they should have spotted the sailing vessel and kept clear.

Bottom line we should all be responsible for our own vessels safety.

Actually. I though my comparison to drink driving, or drinking while sailing would cause more offence. Yet I think its also a valid comparison.

Bear in mind your sleeping single hander may hit an other sail boat (who if single handed would be equally at fault) or a fishing vessel either of which he may be the stand on vessel for.
I cant say I've ever heard of it happening. Other than the Volvo guys hitting and sinking the fishing vessel. At least they were on watch. Not asleep.

So my conclusion. Go ahead and sail single handed and go to sleep if you feel like it. Nobody is going to stop you or cite you or do anything about it.

If you get hit. Accept its your own fault.
The other party with a half decent layer should be able to convince the courts to agree.

If the fishing vessel was fishing it is the stand on vessel..
If both single handers were asleep then 50/50.. as for the Volvo racers.. they may as well have been asleep for all the good they were..
If the guy on watch cannot see the guy who is asleep to me thats a combination of 50% incompetence and 50% of what you call negligence..
Takes 2 to tango.

[jmorrison146]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

I suppose you can think that if you want, but the US Coast Guard patrols out to 200 miles from any US territory. That is a pretty good sized piece of the Pacific Ocean in particular. In US waters, the Coast Guard boards private yachts as well as small and large commercial vessels for drug inspections, fishery inspections, and mandatory safety inspections. If they see evidence of a vessel operating without a lookout on deck or in the pilothouse, you should assume you would be cited.

The USCG operates well beyond 200nm from US territory, lately making drug seizures off Brazil and the Galapagos. Ice breaking into McMurdo Sound as well, annually supporting resupply.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

. . .If the guy on the ship goes to bed and leaves the dog on watch . . .

I always wondered what the "dog watch" was . . .

[Olddan1943]

"dogging the watch" usually occurred on a Sunday and basically screws up everyone involved sleep pattern. I really hated it.

[Olddan1943]

There was a case near Ft Lauderdal, rented captain single handed a yacht over 50 feet from the islands, fell asleep and woke only when the yacht ran up on the beach. It was there for a few days. Reported by the media with "live from the beach" reporting.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Olddan1943

There was a case near Ft Lauderdal, rented captain single handed a yacht over 50 feet from the islands, fell asleep and woke only when the yacht ran up on the beach. It was there for a few days. Reported by the media with "live from the beach" reporting.

That's is one relevant point, single handed the bar is set much higher, make a stupid mistake there's no one else around to cover for you. You have to be on top form all the time, which very much includes not getting too tired in the first place.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Olddan1943

"dogging the watch" usually occurred on a Sunday and basically screws up everyone involved sleep pattern. I really hated it.

In the Royal Navy the 'dog watches' were daily 4pm to 6pm and 6pm to 8pm.
This was to facilitate everyone getting a hot meal from the galley between 5pm and 7pm.