Rules of the road - entering a channel

[Scorpius]

Again, I feel it necessary to point out that the phrase "right of way" does not appear in COLREGS. There are "give way" vessels that are obliged to maneuver (change speed or course to avoid a dangerous situation) and "stand on" vessels who are equally obliged NOT TO change course or speed (unless a collision appears imminent in which case they must maneuver to avoid one). Around here I've had kayaks, sailboats and sailing dinghies, who would normally be the stand on vessels when I'm motoring, turn or tack right in front of me then scream "right of way". I've several times been forced to apply full power astern to avoid a collision. Once they turn while in close proximity to another vessel they lose their "stand on" status and no longer have the "right of way".

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Around here I've had kayaks, sailboats and sailing dinghies, who would normally be the stand on vessels when I'm motoring, turn or tack right in front of me then scream "right of way".

Which is why some of us here are so adamant about using the correct terminology and debunking the myth of "right of way".

It is incumbent on all sailors who understand the rules to try to eradicate the dangerous misconception of "privilege" and "right of way".

[waterman46]

I think some posters have not considered the following rules:



International Rules, Rule 9(d): A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway.



Inland Rules Part 9(b):
A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.


Now, we are talking about the situation where the OP was still in the channel. As soon as he leaves the channel he is definitely the give-way boat in his situation but just at the point where he is still inside the last buoy on his starboard, an incoming boat who in essence is attempting to cross the channel in front of him, must not "impede" him.

There is no obligation of the boat proceeding down a channel to turn out of the channel. It doesn't exist in the rules (though it definitely is the smart thing to do in some cases).

No other boat can decide for me whether or not I can safely turn out of a marked channel whether or not I am displaying the visual signals. Are they going to look up my draft on the internet and check the chart and the tide tables to make that decision? Maybe he thinks 1 foot of clearance is OK, but maybe I disagree. There are many reasons for not leaving the channel, even if you feel you "could". For one thing, insurance might not cover a collision with the bottom if I left a clearly marked channel.
There is some difficulty with "impede" however. Does it mean they can make me stop and wait for them? In that case they don't "impede" me, they just inconvenience me.

Anyway If I was the OP I simply would have slowed to steerageway and waited for the incoming vessel to cross my bow, if I could not clear the last buoy before he arrived at the same point.

[mow2000]

I'm the OP. Avoiding a collision really isn't difficult. I was only interested in whether there was a rule that I was missing which covered this situation. It appears that there is a gap in the rules IMHO.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by mow2000

I'm the OP. Avoiding a collision really isn't difficult. I was only interested in whether there was a rule that I was missing which covered this situation. It appears that there is a gap in the rules IMHO.

It would fall under the good seamanship rule (2), but as waterman46 mentions Rule 9 is also in play. You may find some similarities with your situation here: https://www.shiplawlog.com/2018/12/2...e-alexandra-1/

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by StuM

Which is why some of us here are so adamant about using the correct terminology and debunking the myth of "right of way".

It is incumbent on all sailors who understand the rules to try to eradicate the dangerous misconception of "privilege" and "right of way".

I don't think there is any myth, but do agree wholeheartedly that we should all use the current terms from the Rules.


There should be no misconception or misinterpretation of words used in the Rules. They are clearly defined for purposes of navigation. Isn't the important thing really a matter of correct understanding of those terms, rather than which terms are in vogue at the present time? If any navigator does not correctly understand "stand-on" or "give-way" then those currently used words could be just as dangerous as other terms used in previous editions of the Rules.

A complete reading of the intent of those words as defined in the Rules, in the context of navigation and collision avoidance at sea, is necessary before they convey any advantage over any other terms previously used.

I don't have a previous edition of the Rules with me at this time, but I am quite sure there must have been similar language explaining that priviledge and right-of-way are not absolute "rights" in the same way that stand-on is not an absolute right-of-way. At least that's the way I learned it from more experienced folks using some of those other terms way back when I first began boating.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by mow2000

Thanks everyone for the input. I guess the bottom line is that if you're in a channel and someone is approaching from outside the channel from starboard on a collision course (both under power) then you should maneuver to avoid them if there's room.

In my case there might actually have been room to turn to starboard to avoid the incoming boat. The chart seems to indicate appropriate depth. But I've always been leery of turning out of the channel in that area. How accurate is that chart? I don't know.

Seems a little crazy that people can cut you off like that but that appears to be the way it is.

with all due respect : it seems the other guy was the stand on vessel, unless you were restricted in yr ability to manoeuver in the channel.

did you consider if slowing down was an option ? perhaps it wasn't, but many forget that there is more than one way to manoeuver to allow the stand on vessel room

cheers,

[mow2000]

Originally Posted by requiem

It would fall under the good seamanship rule (2), but as waterman46 mentions Rule 9 is also in play. You may find some similarities with your situation here: https://www.shiplawlog.com/2018/12/2...e-alexandra-1/

Sorry, I completely disagree. Nothing in those rules precludes another boat from legally cutting you off in the channel under certain/most/many circumstances.

In my view it shouldn't be possible to force someone out of the channel or force them to stop or slow considerably in a channel to allow a boat into the channel. A captain shouldn't be forced to know whether deviating out of a channel to starboard at any particular point is safe. But that's my view. Hence why I believe there is a gap in the rules.

[mow2000]

Originally Posted by chrisr

with all due respect : it seems the other guy was the stand on vessel, unless you were restricted in yr ability to manoeuver in the channel.

did you consider if slowing down was an option ? perhaps it wasn't, but many forget that there is more than one way to manoeuver to allow the stand on vessel room

cheers,

Again, it is very easy to avoid a collision. This wasn't the issue. Yes, you can slow down, turn, wiggle, wobble, or send up a flare. That is all possible most anywhere.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by mow2000

Sorry, I completely disagree. Nothing in those rules precludes another boat from legally cutting you off in the channel under certain/most/many circumstances.

In my view it shouldn't be possible to force someone out of the channel or force them to stop or slow considerably in a channel to allow a boat into the channel. A captain shouldn't be forced to know whether deviating out of a channel to starboard at any particular point is safe. But that's my view. Hence why I believe there is a gap in the rules.

You haven't addressed the questions I posed at #44, and apparently didn't read about rule 2(a). The rules do not override the ordinary practice of seamen - that is, things like following buoyage or not running aground. While there may be a bit more leeway for small vessels to ignore buoys that mark deep-draught channels, it should be assumed that the buoys marking a channel into a marina are intended for the vessels using the marina. That is to say, there is nothing in the rules that will force a captain to deviate out of the channel, except possibly the tenet that one must do whatever is necessary to avoid collision in extremis - but even that assumes you won't trade collision for allision.

[wholybee]

Another situation that I was in a few months ago.

I was entering Charleston Harbor. I had never been there and was not familiar with it. So I was in the long channel the whole way, even though I technically had enough room to navigate outside the channel (in places < 20 ft. depth according to the chart.)

I was under sail.

There was a dredging operation in the channel, so I exited the channel on the starboard (north) side to keep clear.

While I was outside the channel, a tug with a tow crossed the channel from south to north in front of me.

I kept clear. I still kept clear of the dredge, but as I was passing it turned to port just behind the buoys that surrounded it, crossed the channel, and exited it on the port side to keep clear of the tow. I made a much greater turn than necessary so it would be obvious to the tug what I was doing.

I thought maybe the tug should keep clear, as it was both crossing a channel, and crossing in front of a sailboat. However, it didn't look like it was able to stop or make a sharp turn, so I kept clear.

Several things going on, all of which are in the rules in various places. I was in the channel. There was a dredge. A tow. And a channel crossing.

[FlightPlan]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Could you please show us where in the COLREGS you find the "rules of navigating in a marked channel"?

I probably should have refrained from making the editorial comment that you quoted from my post.


However, the OP did not give a lot of detail and I made the assumption that the power boat entering the channel was crossing his bow at 45 degrees between #1 and #2 and proceeding further into the channel from the sea. There was no mention of the powerboat altering course, slowing down to cross astern or providing any signal of his intentions. No argument here on avoidance of collision by both parties. No mention of narrow channel, shallow channel other than a channel in a wide bay. I think it was poor seamanship to come close to the boat making way in the channel without some sign of intent. It seems careless to come close to a boat in a wide bay



As to a rule, I could not find one. although I think that channel markers are in place to mark safe water for incoming and outgoing traffic.

[carstenb]

In reading this, and other threads on the Colregs, I'm appalled at how many boaters (both sail and power) apparently cannot seem to grasp the significance of the difference between "right of way" and "give way" or "privileged" and "stand on" concepts.

Understanding this distinction is basic to understanding the Colregs and yet so many seem to think the difference is negligible or non-existent and are willing to argue the point.

In Denmark you do not need any theoretical education to sail a boat less than 15 meters unless it is a power boat with a certain sized engine. The insurance companies all offer a 10% discount on your insurance if you complete the basic Proficiency course and pass the examination.

Perhaps something like that should be made mandatory (even though I am against that type of thing on principle).

I don't know - but when so many don't grasp this basic knowledge - what else can be done?

[JoeRobertJr]

Originally Posted by carstenb

In reading this, and other threads on the Colregs, I'm appalled at how many boaters (both sail and power) apparently cannot seem to grasp the significance of the difference between "right of way" and "give way" or "privileged" and "stand on" concepts.

Understanding this distinction is basic to understanding the Colregs and yet so many seem to think the difference is negligible or non-existent and are willing to argue the point.

In Denmark you do not need any theoretical education to sail a boat less than 15 meters unless it is a power boat with a certain sized engine. The insurance companies all offer a 10% discount on your insurance if you complete the basic Proficiency course and pass the examination.

Perhaps something like that should be made mandatory (even though I am against that type of thing on principle).

I don't know - but when so many don't grasp this basic knowledge - what else can be done?

It does not help that resources like Chapmans and Sailing magazine articles use the "right of way" phrase as synonymous with stand-on.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by carstenb

In reading this, and other threads on the Colregs, I'm appalled at how many boaters (both sail and power) apparently cannot seem to grasp the significance of the difference between "right of way" and "give way" or "privileged" and "stand on" concepts.

Understanding this distinction is basic to understanding the Colregs and yet so many seem to think the difference is negligible or non-existent and are willing to argue the point.

In Denmark you do not need any theoretical education to sail a boat less than 15 meters unless it is a power boat with a certain sized engine. The insurance companies all offer a 10% discount on your insurance if you complete the basic Proficiency course and pass the examination.

Perhaps something like that should be made mandatory (even though I am against that type of thing on principle).

I don't know - but when so many don't grasp this basic knowledge - what else can be done?

Most US insurance companies allow a 10% discount for taking the USCG/State Marine Police training course. It's only a near shore/inland course and the endorsement covers up to 25t for insurance purposes and regulations but it covers the basics which many on the water seem not to have.