Rules of the road - entering a channel

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by JoeRobertJr

It does not help that resources like Chapmans and Sailing magazine articles use the "right of way" phrase as synonymous with stand-on.

Very true and they should be chided for perpetuating this myth that there is a "right of way" while at sea.

[mow2000]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

You haven't addressed the questions I posed at #44, and apparently didn't read about rule 2(a). The rules do not override the ordinary practice of seamen - that is, things like following buoyage or not running aground. While there may be a bit more leeway for small vessels to ignore buoys that mark deep-draught channels, it should be assumed that the buoys marking a channel into a marina are intended for the vessels using the marina. That is to say, there is nothing in the rules that will force a captain to deviate out of the channel, except possibly the tenet that one must do whatever is necessary to avoid collision in extremis - but even that assumes you won't trade collision for allision.

I'm willing to believe you. Tell me specifically why I should not give way in the following situation:

I am in a channel steaming at 5 knots with a boat to my starboard bow heading towards the channel (currently outside the channel) at 45-ish degrees on a collision course. There is room to maneuver to my right (outside the channel).

[dannc]

Originally Posted by carstenb

In reading this, and other threads on the Colregs, I'm appalled at how many boaters (both sail and power) apparently cannot seem to grasp the significance of the difference between "right of way" and "give way" or "privileged" and "stand on" concepts.
...

In Denmark you do not need any theoretical education to sail a boat less than 15 meters unless it is a power boat with a certain sized engine. The insurance companies all offer a 10% discount on your insurance if you complete the basic Proficiency course and pass the examination.

Perhaps something like that should be made mandatory (even though I am against that type of thing on principle).

I don't know - but when so many don't grasp this basic knowledge - what else can be done?

On one of the recent RAN sailing videos, they were motoring through a very narrow passage that was maybe a bit wider than the boats LOA. They said there was a speed limit of 4 mph. I think there was also a dock in the channel as well.

They were filming with their drone as their boat went through the cut. Really pretty video.

A power boat that was on a plane, head righted towards RAN which is a sail boat. The power boat eventually came down from being on a plane and they barely missed RAN by a meter or so. I think RAN had to turn a bit to starboard but they really could not turn much due to the limited width of the cut.

The power boat continued into the cut and went over a shallow area between shore and a following sailboat. The shallow area looked to be a big rock but I guess it was deep enough, and the power boat's draft was shallow, since the power boat did not appear to touch bottom. The power boat was very close to the second sailboat and to shore.

I used to spend quite a bit of time on South Florida waterways, especially during summer holidays when the Inter Coastal Waterway looks like a boat highway so nothing really surprises me anymore. What was shown n RAN's video was not a surprise per say.

I assume that there is boater education in Sweden. But just because one has been "educated", tested, licensed, etc, it does not mean one does not make mistakes, does not pay attention, is rude, or is a flat out dumb a....

Later,
Dan

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by FlightPlan

I probably should have refrained from making the editorial comment that you quoted from my post.

However, the OP did not give a lot of detail and I made the assumption that the power boat entering the channel was crossing his bow at 45 degrees between #1 and #2 and proceeding further into the channel from the sea. There was no mention of the powerboat altering course, slowing down to cross astern or providing any signal of his intentions. No argument here on avoidance of collision by both parties. No mention of narrow channel, shallow channel other than a channel in a wide bay. I think it was poor seamanship to come close to the boat making way in the channel without some sign of intent. It seems careless to come close to a boat in a wide bay

As to a rule, I could not find one. although I think that channel markers are in place to mark safe water for incoming and outgoing traffic.

My question was intentionally provocative -- for the purpose of helping people flush out sections of the Rules which they have just made up in their heads. If it provoked you to flip through the Rules, then it served it's purpose



As you know now, there aren't any such rules, other than Rule 9, and as has been discussed by others, a buoyed channel is not necessarily a "narrow channel" within the meaning of Rule 9.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by mow2000

Sorry, I completely disagree. Nothing in those rules precludes another boat from legally cutting you off in the channel under certain/most/many circumstances.

In my view it shouldn't be possible to force someone out of the channel or force them to stop or slow considerably in a channel to allow a boat into the channel. A captain shouldn't be forced to know whether deviating out of a channel to starboard at any particular point is safe. But that's my view. Hence why I believe there is a gap in the rules.

If you don't know if it's safe or not, and the reason isn't that you're a bad captain who can't read a chart, then the answer is 9(d) obliges the other boat to keep clear.

There's this "I think I can squeeze by" or "can do" mentality that often leads to accidents. "Can navigate" is different from "Can safely navigate", and if the depths outside are such that you cannot safely/freely maneuver outside the channel after accounting for the chart's margin of error, then 9(d) should apply.

Example A: large bay, 5 m deep, with a 10 m deep shipping channel in the middle: My boat with a 2 m draft can freely navigate and so the channel is largely superfluous.

Example B: large bay, 2.1 m deep, with a 3 m deep channel to reach a marina: My boat with a 2 m draft "might" be able to operate outside the channel, but the chart error is ±0.5 m. Sounding five blasts would be the "by the book" response.

[mow2000]

Originally Posted by requiem

If you don't know if it's safe or not, and the reason isn't that you're a bad captain who can't read a chart, then the answer is 9(d) obliges the other boat to keep clear.

There's this "I think I can squeeze by" or "can do" mentality that often leads to accidents. "Can navigate" is different from "Can safely navigate", and if the depths outside are such that you cannot safely/freely maneuver outside the channel after accounting for the chart's margin of error, then 9(d) should apply.

Example A: large bay, 5 m deep, with a 10 m deep shipping channel in the middle: My boat with a 2 m draft can freely navigate and so the channel is largely superfluous.

Example B: large bay, 2.1 m deep, with a 3 m deep channel to reach a marina: My boat with a 2 m draft "might" be able to operate outside the channel, but the chart error is ±0.5 m. Sounding five blasts would be the "by the book" response.

But 9d does not apply because there is room to turn out of the channel (essentially it's not a "narrow" channel - but here again, what is the definition of a narrow channel?). My point is that I don't think another boat should have the right to force you out of a channel under any circumstances. I think that's a hole in the regs.

[mow2000]

I've had a couple of minor revelations. First, and probably not surprising, there is no definition of "narrow channel". On a USCG FAQ they state:

"A waterway is deemed a narrow channel or fairway by circumstances and conditions; and, more times than not, by a Court judgment when Rule 9 was not heeded. Narrowness is relative; what is constraining for two container ships would not necessarily be narrow for two canoes."

Okay, makes sense. So in my scenario it might be a case not of a boat entering the channel and forcing me to turn "out of" the channel (since the boundaries of a channel are vague) but a case of the boat forcing a change in heading. My heading was towards the next channel marker but now it's in an entirely different direction (that I may not be comfortable with but may be navigable).

I will attempt to attach a portion of the chart which shows the actual location of my situation. In thinking about it now it's obvious these markers main (possibly only) purpose is to mark the shallow water to the north. What it doesn't show is the minefield of crab floats to the south and, based on experience, I'm a little skeptical of it's accuracy. I know that heading from "4" to "2" gives me safe passage. So how "wide" is this channel? Does it extend as far south as depth allows? Is it cone shaped? Is a boat to the south heading for marker "4" in the channel? Is it not a channel? What's the sound of one hand clapping?

I don't really expect answers to my questions (except for the last one). Just providing some food for thought.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by mow2000

I'm willing to believe you. Tell me specifically why I should not give way in the following situation:

I am in a channel steaming at 5 knots with a boat to my starboard bow heading towards the channel (currently outside the channel) at 45-ish degrees on a collision course. There is room to maneuver to my right (outside the channel).

I think requiem has given you the answer. Assume the situation where a dinghy crosses a ship that's in a marked channel and would not be able to depart the channel - 9(d) applies. Now if the vessel in the channel is also a dinghy, and therefore clearly not constrained by the depth out of the channel, it would be a rule 15 crossing. But if it's unclear if the vessel in the channel can exit the channel, then the former situation should be assumed - but it's really up to that vessel to make the call. If you know it's safe for you to depart the channel, then you should make the alteration; if you're unsure, then sound 5 short. Regardless anyone cutting into a marked channel in such a way to force a vessel using that channel into taking avoiding action, is extremely unseamanlike.

[mow2000]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I think requiem has given you the answer. Assume the situation where a dinghy crosses a ship that's in a marked channel and would not be able to depart the channel - 9(d) applies. Now if the vessel in the channel is also a dinghy, and therefore clearly not constrained by the depth out of the channel, it would be a rule 15 crossing. But if it's unclear if the vessel in the channel can exit the channel, then the former situation should be assumed - but it's really up to that vessel to make the call. If you know it's safe for you to depart the channel, then you should make the alteration; if you're unsure, then sound 5 short. Regardless anyone cutting into a marked channel in such a way to force a vessel using that channel into taking avoiding action, is extremely unseamanlike.

I think you made my point. I shouldn't have to "make the alteration" and depart the channel. I also shouldn't have to sound 5 short. It should be in the regulations that I am the stand-on vessel. This, in my opinion, is the hole in the regs.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by mow2000

I think you made my point. I shouldn't have to "make the alteration" and depart the channel. I also shouldn't have to sound 5 short. It should be in the regulations that I am the stand-on vessel. This, in my opinion, is the hole in the regs.

There's no hole in the regs - you just don't want to give way where you should give way. The chart suggests, that that is not a channel - there are stbd-hand buoys that mark the northern limit of the safe water, but you clearly have open water south of that.

[mow2000]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

There's no hole in the regs - you just don't want to give way where you should give way. The chart suggests, that that is not a channel - there are stbd-hand buoys that mark the northern limit of the safe water, but you clearly have open water south of that.

So maybe I don't understand the definition of a "channel". How do you determine what lateral aids mark a channel and which do not? Does an absence of one-color or the other marker indicate a non-channel?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

There's no hole in the regs - you just don't want to give way where you should give way. The chart suggests, that that is not a channel - there are stbd-hand buoys that mark the northern limit of the safe water, but you clearly have open water south of that.

This.


I suggest losing the road-oriented mentality of considering channels to be highways, where everything entering them has to yield. Going down the highway with right of way.


If it's not a "narrow channel", then the normal rules apply. Navigating down the buoys doesn't mean anything otherwise.

[mow2000]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This.


I suggest losing the road-oriented mentality of considering channels to be highways, where everything entering them has to yield. Going down the highway with right of way.


If it's not a "narrow channel", then the normal rules apply. Navigating down the buoys doesn't mean anything otherwise.

It's not at all a "road oriented" mentality. To me the lateral aids indicate safe passage without fear of grounding. And, god forbid, someone lost their chart overboard in a hurricane and wandered into a foreign port they could simply... follow the numbers and be assured safe passage.

The interesting thing is that almost everyone here follows the numbers. Even the guy who cut me off turned into the "non channel" when he could have gone behind me into the "channel". So it was in his head that this was a kind of highway.

But again, where is the definition for "channel"?

[requiem]

Originally Posted by mow2000

But again, where is the definition for "channel"?

Oh dear, you just had to keep looking! Now we have another body to get rid of....

To your question, not only is "narrow channel" not defined, but it was intentionally undefined. (A decision that has created some controversy.)

A pair of (probably oversimplified) definitions would be that a channel refers to the geographical or bathymetric feature, whilst fairway refers to a buoyed or otherwise artificially created feature (that some also refer to as a channel).

Part of the definition will be that there is some confinement, and that will depend on the relative size of the vessels using it, as well as the self-referential "a narrow channel is a channel that is treated as a narrow channel". In many places authorities will have tried to address the problem by preemptively declaring areas to be narrow channels. (For example, SF Bay falls in this category.)

Thus, even though the lateral marks in your chart may be of great value to guiding a lost mariner to safety, it is rather difficult to describe a channel as "narrow" if it's only bounded on one side. I believe that, at least for US courts, the rule is interpreted as "narrow (channel or fairway)" and not "(narrow channel) or fairway".

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by mow2000

So maybe I don't understand the definition of a "channel". How do you determine what lateral aids mark a channel and which do not? Does an absence of one-color or the other marker indicate a non-channel?

This is a good question. Lateral marks don't always mark a channel - frequently they are used alone to mark shoal water. And equally, channels often only have buoys on one side, or no buoys at all - they are then defined by their geography. In the simplest sense, a channel's defining characteristic is that it confines the direction of travel to 2 directions - up-channel and down-channel. If you think of a canal, that would be a classic channel. In fact the word 'canal' comes from the French word for 'channel'. And you can say you aren't completely limited to the course you follow in a canal; you'd be correct - you can cross a canal, but it's not a long trip and it typically won't get you anywhere. Of course, we then have the English Channel, where you have vessels going in hundreds of directions - and they had to go and confuse things by calling it a channel. You should think of it as a mega-channel, or a strait, but if it doesn't define the direction of traffic, it certainly defines the direction of the flow of the water - generally speaking.

Back to your OP, it sounds like a fine example of the strange habits of motor-boaters and their bizarre compulsion to cross ahead of sailboats, even if they have to go out of their way to do it. In a delta, or opening to a bay, where you can reasonably go in a wide arc of direction, you shouldn't really consider that you are confined to hugging the red buoys.