Rules of the road - entering a channel

[Digitalvillager]

The bottom line....in the case of an accident, the Coast Guard assumes both parties to be at fault.

[dr.leduc]

Regardless of who is right or wrong, a power boat purposely coming within feet of yours to indicate their disapproval of your knowledge of the colregs should be reported to the authorities. They have violated multiple colregs in doing so; Rule 2, 5, 6, 7 and 8 come to mind.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by grantheadifen

What is interesting and common in a situation like this is that the other guy (in this case the powerboat) does not know you are constrained by draft . . .

I would suggest that the phrase "constrained by draft" is not really good here -- this phrase has a specific meaning in the Rules, relating to Rule 28, and that is not at play here. This can cause confusion, and God knows people are confused enough about Rule 28 vs Rule 9.

The principle at play here is "able to safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway" -- Rule 9.

Originally Posted by grantheadifen

. . .

nor does he/she know you have your engines on. Nor does he/she know that your rudder is not locked etc etc the list goes on. The powerboat must make some assumptions and those assumptions must be based on safety.

No assumptions should be made about those conditions! If sails are up and the sailboat is not showing a motoring cone, then the motorboat must consider the sailboat to be a sailing vessel. If the sailboat is not showing NUC signals, then the powerboat must treat the sailboat as not being NUC.

Originally Posted by grantheadifen

. . .

The powerboat has the obligation to adjust course to not cause a collision. This does not specifically answer the question of who is the stand-on vessel. But it does show that the powerboat is still clearly in the wrong by missing you by a few feet and thus creating a close-quarters situation. . ..

Faced with a sailing vessel (sails up and no motoring cone displayed), a power vessel is give way, and must give way with early and substantial action.

Faced with a vessel navigating in a narrow fairway and channel, which cannot navigate safely outside of it (easy to tell on the basis of the chart and general knowledge about the type of vessel in question), a power vessel under 20 meters must not impede the passage of the sailboat (that's different from being give-way).

Missing by a few feet is a violation of a number of different Rules, but in the first place it shows that the action by the power boat was not substantial enough. BUT -- seeing that the power boat's maneuver wasn't substantial enough to make a safe pass, the sailboat was obligated to make its own maneuver. So it should never have happened, that pass "within a few feet" -- both vessels were obligated to prevent that from happening.

Originally Posted by grantheadifen

. . . When you look at the rules, the stand-on vessel has more obligations than the give-way vessel.

Very true, and very important


Not just more obligations, but less freedom, less discretion. Standing-on is a lot more like a burden, than giving-way is.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bill_Giles

Firstly there is no “right of way”, there is a “stand on” and a “give way” vessel. I teach this stuff and my teaching says “stand on - with caution”. Secondly many channels are dredged and buoyed for large vessels and most leisure boats can operate outside of the marked channel. Lastly, you have some doubt about the other boat’s intentions, clearly he is joining the channel on your right and is obviously the stand on vessel. At night he would see a green light which means to him go ahead. You would see a red, surely you are not proposing to proceed on this regardless?

When in doubt keep out! Drive defensively. There are no give way or yield signs when joining the main road at sea.

Good stuff

[cappy208]

mow2000: You lost me at: "Going from marker 2 to 1." And "I can't alter course or slow down." After looking at your pic of the chart exactly what is your rationale for not altering course AWAY/ or slowing down from oncoming traffic on your Starboard side? Especially since you doing NOTHING made a near miss happen.

I believe your interpretation of 'Narrow Channel' is flawed. It seems to be your desire to impart some navigational benefit upon yourself. That is not what Colregs are about.

Your picture shows wide open area. How were you in any way in a channel and unable to slow, stop or alter course? Please explain.

As someone else noted: You cannot blame someone else if YOU have not taken any action to avoid collision. And you cannot complain about the other guy when you are equally responsible to avoid (but did nothing).

[Bmorgan562]

Originally Posted by mow2000

First off, let me apologize if this question has been answered a zillion times. I did do a search but probably not extensive enough.

After some recent near-collisions I went back and reviewed the "rules of the road" and cannot find anything that clearly explains the rules on entering a channel.

Here's a scenario: you are in a channel on a wide bay going from channel marker 2 to 1. A boat is entering the channel from your right at about a 45 degree angle to you. He's on a collision course with you. In open water he is the stand-on boat. You are in a motoring sailboat and might be concerned about departing the channel to allow for his entry or stopping and losing steering control.

My understanding has been that you have the right of way since you are in the channel and he is entering the channel.

What I encountered the other day which got me to thinking about this was a large powerboat at high speed purposely coming within several feet of my bow apparently because he felt I was violating the rules and cutting into his path. His passenger glared at me as they went by.

I am curious if anyone can pin down a rule which covers this? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks,
Mark
Kelt 7.60

It is imperative you know the rules. I truly believe. But knowing and “standing” by waiting for another to do what they are suppose to do is the recipe for disaster. Be courteous as possible when possible and protect yourself first. You can totally disregard this now, I don’t even own a boat, yet.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by cappy208

mow2000: You lost me at: "Going from marker 2 to 1." And "I can't alter course or slow down." After looking at your pic of the chart exactly what is your rationale for not altering course AWAY/ or slowing down from oncoming traffic on your Starboard side? Especially since you doing NOTHING made a near miss happen.

I believe your interpretation of 'Narrow Channel' is flawed. It seems to be your desire to impart some navigational benefit upon yourself. That is not what Colregs are about.

Your picture shows wide open area. How were you in any way in a channel and unable to slow, stop or alter course? Please explain. . .

I don't think we've yet discussed the difference between giving way, and "not impeding". These are not the same things.

If the narrow channel rules are at play (OP couldn't navigate safely outside the narrow channel), then the power boat was obligated to maneuver far enough ahead that the risk of collision wouldn't arise in the first place -- that's what it means to "not impede", fulfilling the obligation under Rule 9.

But the obligation of the power boat to "not impede", does NOT cancel the obligation of the sailboat to give way, if the sailboat was otherwise give way (motoring, and power boat to starboard) to give way, once the risk of collision DOES arise. The obligation of the motorboat to "not impede" does NOT make the motorboat give-way. Read the Rules and you will see that this is clearly stated.

So even if Rule 9 were in effect, the sailboat, if it is otherwise give-way, must NOT stand on. Once the risk of collision arises, then the normal Steering & Sailing Rules come into effect, and the sailboat should give way with early and substantial action.

It is a source of great confusion, but it is a fundamental principle of the COLREGS, that an obligation of one vessel does NOT and does not EVER create any kind of right, for any other vessels. You have nothing but obligations under the Rules, no rights. Give way and stand on are merely telling you who maneuvers first, and who if necessary second -- not who is responsible for sorting the situation. It's just a question of the order of maneuvering. Both vessels at all times are equally responsible.

So when you are in a crossing situation, whether you are give-way, or stand-on, you must be at all times vigilant and be prepared to maneuver at the right time prescribed by the Rules, in order to ensure that a collision doesn't take place. You NEVER have the right, in a risk of collision situation, to just carry on and let the other vessel worry about it.

Originally Posted by cappy208

. . . I believe your interpretation of 'Narrow Channel' is flawed. It seems to be your desire to impart some navigational benefit upon yourself. That is not what Colregs are about.. . .

Beautifully stated -- THIS Should be tattooed on all of our foreheads.

[sailorboy1]

6 pages and no agreement

as always a rule thread the cleared it all up

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Bill_Giles

Secondly many channels are dredged and buoyed for large vessels and most leisure boats can operate outside of the marked channel. Lastly, you have some doubt about the other boat’s intentions, clearly he is joining the channel on your right and is obviously the stand on vessel. At night he would see a green light which means to him go ahead. You would see a red, surely you are not proposing to proceed on this regardless?

Two examples; in SF Bay there is the channel used to access various marinas around Sausalito, and there are the deep water shipping channels. Sailing boats generally ignore the latter as the change in depth makes no difference, but stray outside the Sausalito channel with a 2m keel and you can easily run aground (1 m vs. 5 m soundings).

A decent chunk of Rule 9 is about interactions between boats that can operate outside the channel, and those that can't. Whether it's a large container ship vs a ferry, or larger sailing yacht vs a small center console power boat, the situation is similar. It's not a question of reading the other vessel's mind to know if there's a broken rudder or the precise draft, it's a question of having looked at the chart and observing that the vessel size is generally appropriate to the channel size.

If I'm motoring up such a channel at night with the fathometer reading close to zero, and I see such a red light converging, I may take off some speed to buy time, but I'm also reaching for the horn / spotlight.

(This is not contrary to the "give way" vs "not impede" issue, this is before that point.)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

6 pages and no agreement

as always a rule thread the cleared it all up

On the contrary, broad agreement, I think, and some useful things said.

For anyone who is truly interesting in figuring out exactly how collision avoidance really works.

Some don't care. Query why they post in Rules threads at all.

[sailorladd]

If you were evidently and obviously under sail while entering the channel, and were on a starboard tack you have the right of way (as it could have been an emergency situation and were using sail to enter)....and anyway, under almost any circumstance, motor gives way to sail... sounds like the guy in the large motor launch had some tipsy guests he felt he needed to show off to...and by the by, the US is about the only country in the world that has it's channel markers reversed ....so the little ditty " Red Right Return" can always be recalled when entering into a US channel (many a boat has come to grief with this not often known factoid...

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by sailorladd

If you were evidently and obviously under sail while entering the channel, and were on a starboard tack you have the right of way (as it could have been an emergency situation and were using sail to enter)....and anyway, under almost any circumstance, motor gives way to sail... sounds like the guy in the large motor launch had some tipsy guests he felt he needed to show off to...and by the by, the US is about the only country in the world that has it's channel markers reversed ....so the little ditty " Red Right Return" can always be recalled when entering into a US channel (many a boat has come to grief with this not often known factoid...

So much is wrong with this.

Power vs sail means starboard tack has nothing to do with it.

row --- forget the term, please.

tipsy guests --- boy, glad you're not on my jury, do you just make this stuff up? From the OP's question, can you now tell us what color the powerboat was and how many guests were on board? Any dogs or cats?

red right return --- sure, how come this is "a not often known factoid?" US sailors going abroad seem to have more trouble with what the rest of the world does than vice versa.

[Bill_Giles]

Of course at the end of the day whatever you do might have to explain it to your insurer, the Marine Accident Investigation Branch, a court or, heaven forfend, a coroner.

[cappy208]

Originally Posted by sailorladd

If you were evidently and obviously under sail while entering the channel, and were on a starboard tack you have the right of way (as it could have been an emergency situation and were using sail to enter)....and anyway, under almost any circumstance, motor gives way to sail...

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. The OP was under power. He was underway in a wide open bay. Stbd (or Port) Tack is completely lacking importance. No one has said any emergency situation existed. and NEVER does motor give way to sail under almost any circumstance.

"9 (b) A vessel of less than 20M in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can only operate within a narrow channel or fairway." This is but one specific example in Colregs to throw water on the thought that sailboats 'always' have the right of way (or stand on, or privilege whatever the word nazis want to call it.)
Seems pretty clear to me. NO? Does the 20M mean sailboats under 20 M? or ALL sailboats? To me it is two separate clauses. Boats under 20M, AND sailboats (no size mentioned). Not that this was the OPs question. But it seems interminable that this issues comes up about every 3 months.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by cappy208

. . . "9 (b) A vessel of less than 20M in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can only operate within a narrow channel or fairway." This is but one specific example in Colregs to throw water on the thought that sailboats 'always' have the right of way (or stand on, or privilege whatever the word nazis want to call it.). . .

Well, except that the obligation to "not impede" does not change the give-way, stand-on situation. Please read the post on this above.

As has been said many times in this thread -- stand on vs "right of way" is NOT a "word nazi" thing -- they are totally different CONCEPTS and different PRINCIPLES, not just different words. You would benefit from reading through the thread from the beginning.

Originally Posted by cappy208

. . . Seems pretty clear to me. NO? Does the 20M mean sailboats under 20 M? or ALL sailboats? To me it is two separate clauses. Boats under 20M, AND sailboats (no size mentioned). Not that this was the OPs question. . .

That sentence is crystal clear -- ANY sailing vessels of ANY size. And other vessels less than 20M in length. So would not apply to a motor vessel (including a sailboat with propulsion gear in use) over 20M.