Schengen Bilateral Agreements

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Now for the $64,000 question:

While they are allowed to honor these prior agreements, are they actually honoring them (outside the new zealand/austraila ones)?

I think they're obligated to, if the treaties are still in force. Not in front of the EU, but in front of the treaty partner.

But obviously it makes sense to check, and so today I wrote to the Polish Embassy, the Swedish Embassy, and the German Embassy, in Washington, requesting clarification. We'll see what they say. I'll post the answers.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Now for the $64,000 question:

While they are allowed to honor these prior agreements, are they actually honoring them (outside the new zealand/austraila ones)?

AND, do the officials enforcing the law even know about the the prior agreements?

Later,
Dan

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by dannc

AND, do the officials enforcing the law even know about the the prior agreements?

Later,
Dan

Another very good question, and the very reason why I would like to have advice from consular departments of those countries' embassies printed out and on hand, together with my log books, rather than relying on second-hand information.

[DeepFrz]

[QUOTE]Thus, for example the nationals of Canada, New Zealand, US, etc. – depending on the continued application of the agreement by the Schengen State - may stay in such Schengen States for the period provided by the bilateral visa waiver agreement in force between the two countries (generally three months), on top of the general 90 days stay in the Schengen area. Article 20(2) of the CISA only provides for the possibility for the Schengen States to apply their 'old' bilateral agreements for such extension, but this is not an obligation."[/QUOTE

I think they're obligated to, if the treaties are still in force. Not in front of the EU, but in front of the treaty partner.

These two statements seem to contradict each other.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by dannc

AND, do the officials enforcing the law even know about the the prior agreements?

Later,
Dan

That was my point. It may be on the books but when the standard operating procedure is to use standard Schengen rules, it could be an uphill battle.

[Dockhead]

[QUOTE=DeepFrz;1582087]

Thus, for example the nationals of Canada, New Zealand, US, etc. – depending on the continued application of the agreement by the Schengen State - may stay in such Schengen States for the period provided by the bilateral visa waiver agreement in force between the two countries (generally three months), on top of the general 90 days stay in the Schengen area. Article 20(2) of the CISA only provides for the possibility for the Schengen States to apply their 'old' bilateral agreements for such extension, but this is not an obligation."[/QUOTE

These two statements seem to contradict each other.

Indeed not -- the first statement comes from the EU -- it says that The EU allows but does not obligate its members who are parties to Schengen to continue their old treaty obligations. And probably plenty of Schengen states have decided that the old treaties are incompatible with the new Schengen system and have terminated them.

But to the extent that such treaties are still in force, then the treaty party (Germany, France, Sweden, whoever) will have obligations in front of the state with which the treaty was signed (U.S., Canada, NZ, etc.).

Is that more clear I hope?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

That was my point. It may be on the books but when the standard operating procedure is to use standard Schengen rules, it could be an uphill battle.

I agree with this. And it looks to me like most of the Schengen states are keeping quiet about these bilateral treaties -- they are not mentioned in the public pages on the embassy sites. Probably hoping people won't take advantage of them, because they will be a PITA to administer. But we see at least two cases -- France, and Sweden -- who have given specific advice to travellers that these treaties are still being honored.

Therefore, I would not risk using any of these treaties just based on my own research. I have asked for specific advice from the consulate departments of the various embassies.

[valhalla360]

Thanks for pursuing this and let us know what you find out.

180days contious opens up a lot of options.

[monte]

I have a quick question if anyone knows where the answer might be found. I understand from a website that
• The “récépissé de demande de renouvellement”(receipt of application for renewal)is a temporaryresidence document that is given to you by the Prefecture the day of your appointment, once you have submitted your application for the renewal of your residence permit. This indicates that your new residence permit is being processed and that you are a legal resident in France. It has a duration of 2 months. If your new “titre de séjour” (residence permit) has not arrived within 2 months, the Prefecture will provide you with a new document. This document allows you to travel within the Schengen area.

Can anyone direct me to where I might find the formal ruling on this? Id liek to have something in print for the neighboring schenhen countries if Im picked up on this..
Thanks
Monte

[DeepFrz]

DH, I'm not sure if you are interested in this but it might help. Scroll down to Other Ways to Stay in Europe and check out "Be Self Employed".

How to (Legally) Stay in Europe for More Than 90 Days | Nomadic Matt's Travel Site

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by monte

I have a quick question if anyone knows where the answer might be found. I understand from a website that
• The “récépissé de demande de renouvellement”(receipt of application for renewal)is a temporaryresidence document that is given to you by the Prefecture the day of your appointment, once you have submitted your application for the renewal of your residence permit. This indicates that your new residence permit is being processed and that you are a legal resident in France. It has a duration of 2 months. If your new “titre de séjour” (residence permit) has not arrived within 2 months, the Prefecture will provide you with a new document. This document allows you to travel within the Schengen area.

Can anyone direct me to where I might find the formal ruling on this? Id liek to have something in print for the neighboring schenhen countries if Im picked up on this..
Thanks
Monte

Yes, I was pleasantly surprised to find out the exact same thing in Finland, although it is no where mentioned in any of the websites or documents.

I applied yesterday for a residence permit in Finland, although I have no intention of establishing a residence there. That is because that is the next stage from 90/180 -- there is no such thing as a one-year visa or six-month visa. So if you need to be in Finland (and many other Schengen countries) for three months and one day, you have no alternative but to apply for a residence permit.

I went in for the interview, to give fingerprints, and to show my original documents after applying online. It was very pleasant and quick (15 minutes). I was surprised when at the end of it the nice police lady handed me a document which already allows me to reside legally in Finland while my application for a residence is being processed. "Now you can stay as long as you like", she said.

The only downside to this is significant cost -- 450 euros. It's also a bit of a thing for cruisers that you're theoretically tied to one place, but I suppose many cruisers could make someplace in Schengen a home base. Remember also that Schengen residence permits are good only for one specific country; you are still limited to 90/180 in the other Schengen countries.

Another thing is that some cruisers might find it hard to qualify for it if they are on sabbatical or retired. I am actually working in Finland, so that made it easier.

As to your specific question: I suppose that the concept of a pending residence permit application is going to be universal in all Schengen countries. But I think it would be wise to check with the consulate departments of the embassies of the countries you intend to visit, to be sure.

[Dockhead]

So it seems that what you get when your residence permit application is pending is called a "temporary residence permit".

It looks like at least one country (France) will not recognize the temporary residence permit of other Schengen states for purposes of re-entering the Schengen zone via France. See: http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/d...cp120078en.pdf

[Dockhead]

I received my first response from a Schengen country embassy to my query about whether they honor old bilateral agreements wiht respect to U.S. citizens:

"You are correct, Sweden only counts the visits to the Nordic countries."


This came from the consular department of the Swedish Embassy in Washington.



Bingo. Now let's see if Poland and Germany respond the same way. If so, then the Baltic is really fine for U.S. cruisers (and probably also Canadians and various Antipodeans). It would mean you could simply split your time between Nordic and non-Nordic countries and Russia and you would be ok indefinitely.


UPDATE: The Germans never responded. If they do not recognize a bilateral treaty, then you can't go back there after spending 90 days in Nordic countries. You have to go to Poland or Russia.

[goboatingnow]

We arrive to Azores and the clock start ticking even when you sail the atlantic.
Then we visit north spain and france then to get out the sechengen sail to Ireland and Scotland then to get out the boat from the eurozone sail to Norway but then we are again in schengen
And in the northen countrys nobody cares about the schengen or eurozone here in the burocratic southern europe they look more for this things so now we need to sail to Northen Africa with all their complications and unsafety with my family to reset the dam schengen.
So I am not very happy with this system.

Time at sea does not get counted , so the clock stops when you sail out of the azores.

I would advise you not to be so cavalier with Northern European views on Schengen, Germany has been very strictly , whereas Spain has not been.

All in all its getting stricter as illegal immigration continues from North Africa.

When I can get 90 days in each state of the US , maybe well get longer times in the EU !!

I would not hold my breath Dockhead waiting for the longer Schengen visas, given the concern over borders in the EU at the moment, I suspect any modifications to Schengen will be some time coming.

While they are allowed to honor these prior agreements, are they actually honoring them (outside the new zealand/austraila ones)?

Several countries like Spain , in effect have allowed their bilateral treaties to "whither on the vine", They will simply stamp the Schengen visa into your passport as the default action.


dave

[sher9016]

See link below for changes coming in 2021. Looks like it will change to three years instead of 90 days

https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-requirements/americans