Skipper cited for violation of rule 9.

[MartinAdelaide]

I agree but there's training and a licence system for cars. Doesn't stop people being dickheads, just, usually, more space between boats.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

I don't know about anywhere else, but I know that under the racing rules used by most YCs in San Francisco Bay any race boat that gets a 5 whistle signal from a passing ship is AUTOMATICALLY disqualified.

Kind of dis-incentivizes aggressive rule breaking around big ship traffic.

For ships...sure. They really can't do much to avoid them in most ports. As soon as things look ugly, their best bet is to get on the horn and start blasting.

As a pleasure craft, my first reaction is to try an avoid them. Not blow my horn as I crash into them. Vast majority of the time, they get away with it because most other boaters will just dodge them also. Plus just because it's in the rules, doesn't mean it gets enforced.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Heathenly Twins

Air travel and airspace is heavily regulated and look at how (relatively) safe that is, it could be similar afloat.

And traveling in airspace is a rich man's game as a result if you want to go by private vessel under your own command.

Really boating is relatively safe also and there is little evidence a license would change much of anything.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Trawler2016

We tried for many years to get a mandatory boater's education bill passed in the Utah Legislature. Had a House member sponsor it and every year is was shot down by other legislators.
Their reasoning: "I've been boating for 20+ years and don't need a license".
They would have passed it IF they were exempted from having to get the license or if the bill was written to exclude less than 25 HP.
These are the ones that need the training and education most.
I don't think we will ever see this in Utah and that is a shame.

While I don't necessarily agree we need licensing...this sounds like a problem of strategy and the lost art of compromise.

You get your foot in the door and then let the system creep take over. Assuming you believe in licensing:
- Licensing for over a particular HP or length...at least you made some progress and you got people getting more used to it. Then if you can show a reduction in accidents, you can push for a lower HP/length rule in a few years.
- Licensing for under a certain age and each year that age goes up by a year...so anyone under 16 needs a license...next year it's 17. Eventually, the everyone needs a license...or it's such a small percentage that don't, it's politically feasible to update the law for everyone to have it.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Really boating is relatively safe also and there is little evidence a license would change much of anything.

This site shows declining boating death rates in Canada. The Canadian Pleasure Craft Operators Card (PCOC) was introduced in 1999.

I think the reductions come from two factors:

1. Introduction of a mandatory operator's card program
2. Greater awareness and acceptance of boating safety as signalled by the card

I agree that boating SHOULD be a low-risk activity, especially if there's a minimal awareness of rules and safety, and greater acceptance of sensible precautions like PFDs. A boating "licence" has apparently helped advance those goals in Canada.

There will be some experienced cruisers who will claim that all this isn't necessary... but the licences and rules aren't meant for the few with decades of cruising experience, they're for the majority of boaters with little experience and knowledge.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

This site shows declining boating death rates in Canada. The Canadian Pleasure Craft Operators Card (PCOC) was introduced in 1999.

I think the reductions come from two factors:

1. Introduction of a mandatory operator's card program
2. Greater awareness and acceptance of boating safety as signalled by the card

I agree that boating SHOULD be a low-risk activity, especially if there's a minimal awareness of rules and safety, and greater acceptance of sensible precautions like PFDs. A boating "licence" has apparently helped advance those goals in Canada.

There will be some experienced cruisers who will claim that all this isn't necessary... but the licences and rules aren't meant for the few with decades of cruising experience, they're for the majority of boaters with little experience and knowledge.

That last paragraph sums it up nicely.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

This site shows declining boating death rates in Canada. The Canadian Pleasure Craft Operators Card (PCOC) was introduced in 1999.

I think the reductions come from two factors:

1. Introduction of a mandatory operator's card program
2. Greater awareness and acceptance of boating safety as signalled by the card

I agree that boating SHOULD be a low-risk activity, especially if there's a minimal awareness of rules and safety, and greater acceptance of sensible precautions like PFDs. A boating "licence" has apparently helped advance those goals in Canada.

There will be some experienced cruisers who will claim that all this isn't necessary... but the licences and rules aren't meant for the few with decades of cruising experience, they're for the majority of boaters with little experience and knowledge.

Could you point me to the section on the website that clearly delineates the link between licensing and reduced death rates. Lots of interesting info but it's a big jumble of data.

Just scanning quickly, I saw several places where they reference the major impact of life jackets even claiming a 50% of fatalities could be eliminated. The only statement on licensing is:

It's never been shown that licenced operators improve safety or fatalities. [Education may be another matter. Besides, a boating course is a good winter project for the whole family.

Not exactly strong support for a cause and effect relationship.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Could you point me to the section on the website that clearly delineates the link between licensing and reduced death rates. Lots of interesting info but it's a big jumble of data.

So haaaaard. The card came out in 1999, and boating fatalities in Canada have since dropped.

Not exactly strong support for a cause and effect relationship.

I haven't claimed that licences are solely responsible for the drop. Nonetheless, they're part of the introduced changes that have, net, resulted in lower boating fatalities in Canada. Something has worked...

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

So haaaaard. The card came out in 1999, and boating fatalities in Canada have since dropped.

I haven't claimed that licences are solely responsible for the drop. Nonetheless, they're part of the introduced changes that have, net, resulted in lower boating fatalities in Canada. Something has worked...

So are you going to support making seat warmers in new cars a mandatory safety feature.

There is a clear and strong correlation between the percentage of cars with seat warmers and a reduction in vehicle related fatalities over the same time period. It therefore must be the seat warmers.

Honestly, even your source puts it in writing that licensing has never been shown to reduce fatalities.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So are you going to support making seat warmers in new cars a mandatory safety feature.

There is a clear and strong correlation between the percentage of cars with seat warmers and a reduction in vehicle related fatalities over the same time period. It therefore must be the seat warmers.

Honestly, even your source puts it in writing that licensing has never been shown to reduce fatalities.

You claimed

there is little evidence a license would change much of anything.

... and I gave you just that - a little


If licencing didn't work, we wouldn't be using it for pilots, crane operators, drivers, dogs, poets, captains ...

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

If licencing didn't work, we wouldn't be using it for pilots, crane operators, drivers, dogs, poets, captains ...

Our political overlords do lots of things that make no sense, so just the fact they implemented a rule isn't support for your argument.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Our political overlords do lots of things that make no sense, so just the fact they implemented a rule isn't support for your argument.

The PCOC isn't just a fee-grab. In order to get the license, one has to pass an exam covering colregs, buoyage, boating safety and regulations. It's not a perfect system by any stretch, but it does ensure a minimal knowledge level of safe-boating practices before someone is allowed to get out on the water. Whether or not they retain that knowledge or follow the best practices is another matter, but I think there is a convincing correlation between the implementation of the PCOC and a reduction in boating accidents.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

but I think there is a convincing correlation between the implementation of the PCOC and a reduction in boating accidents.

I'm not asking about "correlation". As shown seat warmers correlate to reduced car crashes...maybe we should mandate them on boats?

I want to know about "causation" and have yet to see that.

PS: I'm not against learning. A boater safety course is a good idea. Been there done that. But when the govt gets involved, they often lose track of the purpose.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I'm not asking about "correlation". As shown seat warmers correlate to reduced car crashes...maybe we should mandate them on boats?

I want to know about "causation" and have yet to see that.

PS: I'm not against learning. A boater safety course is a good idea. Been there done that. But when the govt gets involved, they often lose track of the purpose.

One usually has to make a logical connection - if you can provide a reasonable hypothesis between a warm ass and safe driving, then I'm all ears. You yourself support boating education - presumably you see a connection between knowledge and safety - is that correct? Some jurisdictions require some proof of competency to go boating - RYA ticket or equivalent; do you see justification in that? Why or why not?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

One usually has to make a logical connection

Exactly what I'm asking for. So far I haven't seen anyone come up with one for a license.

The link provided suggested a review of the boating accidents...50% of all fatalities would be eliminated by wearing a life preserver. That's simple and easy to implement and likely far more effective than a license. There is no cost as you are already supposed to have enough life preservers onboard for every passenger.

Are you ready to mandate that any time within 50ft of a boat on the water, a life preserver must be put on and kept on no matter what the conditions?