Skipper cited for violation of rule 9.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I want to know about "causation" and have yet to see that.

PS: I'm not against learning. A boater safety course is a good idea. Been there done that. But when the govt gets involved, they often lose track of the purpose.

Reflexive gummint-hate is not much of an argument for discrediting the PCOC.


You're FOR learning, a PCOC is a "diploma" saying that at time of issue the holder seemed to understand at least something about boating and boating safety... there's the causation, no?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Reflexive gummint-hate is not much of an argument for discrediting the PCOC.


You're FOR learning, a PCOC is a "diploma" saying that at time of issue the holder seemed to understand at least something about boating and boating safety... there's the causation, no?

Reflexive turning to the gummint gonna solve it isn't much of an argument for it either. Usually, it's on of the least efficient and effective approach.

I haven't seen the PCOC but based on other govt licensing I am familiar with...they usually lose track of the original purpose real quick once they get a bureaucracy going (and I've spent time working in a govt bureaucracy, so I'm familiar with how it works).

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I haven't seen the PCOC but based on other govt licensing I am familiar with...they usually lose track of the original purpose real quick once they get a bureaucracy going (and I've spent time working in a govt bureaucracy, so I'm familiar with how it works).

The PCOC is turning 21, and the only changes have been minor updates to the curriculum.

Sailing is a much more rewarding pastime than gummint-hating. Just sayin'.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Reflexive turning to the gummint gonna solve it isn't much of an argument for it either. Usually, it's on of the least efficient and effective approach.

I haven't seen the PCOC but based on other govt licensing I am familiar with...they usually lose track of the original purpose real quick once they get a bureaucracy going (and I've spent time working in a govt bureaucracy, so I'm familiar with how it works).

The govt is pretty hands-off with the PCOC - the training and exams are conducted by accredited training organizations such as CPS https://www.cps-ecp.ca/pcoc-boating-license/

You didn't answer my question - do you see validity in training and certification such as the RYA Yachtmaster cert? Do you think such training leads to fewer accidents?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

The govt is pretty hands-off with the PCOC - the training and exams are conducted by accredited training organizations such as CPS https://www.cps-ecp.ca/pcoc-boating-license/

You didn't answer my question - do you see validity in training and certification such as the RYA Yachtmaster cert? Do you think such training leads to fewer accidents?

Sure but just like in school, those who want to be there get a lot out of it. These people would have learned with or without a license.

Those who are there because they were told they have to be there...don't get so much out of it.

[resistor]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Sure but just like in school, those who want to be there get a lot out of it. These people would have learned with or without a license.

Those who are there because they were told they have to be there...don't get so much out of it.

The theory would be that there's an excluded middle. That some people don't need it, and some people won't benefit from it, but there exists a middle category of people who will get at least something out of being forced to learn it.

A world where everyone is required to prove that they've at least heard of COLREGS seems likely to be a safer one, even if many of them go on to forget it, than one where many will never have heard of it at all.

There's lots of things I've either forgotten or don't regularly follow through on from my highschool driver's ed class too. But I'm probably safer for having been exposed to them at least once, versus just being turned loose with no education at all.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Those who are there because they were told they have to be there...don't get so much out of it.

You'd be surprised. I always do the show of hands: who's here because the state is requiring it? Most people acknowledge that. But those same people come up to me afterward and remark about how glad they were to attend.

I had a fisherman from Gloucester, MA in one of my classes. It was intimidating. Those guys don't take BS from anyone, and he had a lifetime of experience. But he said he learned a lot. His wife called me up afterward to tell me he had asked to have all his crew signed up for the next class.

Originally Posted by resistor

A world where everyone is required to prove that they've at least heard of COLREGS seems likely to be a safer one, even if many of them go on to forget it, than one where many will never have heard of it at all.

This is the whole point. The Yahoos are still Yahoos, but at least they know that there are rules, and they know how much they don't know. That's SO much better than the Yahoos thinking there are no rules, or that they know it all.

As for forgetting most of what you learned, I come back to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR8hKgzgDNs

[Trawler2016]

Until the Utah changed to on-line testing for the PWC youth operators, 12-17, we USCGAUX, taught classes once a week during the fall and winter months for 15 years.
This course was required if the young folk wanted to operate the PWC without an 18 year old on board.
Had to have a least one parent or guardian attend with the student.
99% of the time we would have the parent come up the instructors and tank us for the class and say they had been boating for x years and did not know this or that.
It was gratifying to us.

[dirk_modica]

I would suggest to give that skipper a free trip into a yard and bring him at the bottom of a dry dock with a 45,000 tanker in it and try to let him understand what the danger is if such a mass , be it in ballast or laden, is proceeding through the water at ? say just 6-8 knts. When you see a ship at 200 meters it is already big, but when you are so near that you can touch it maybe you realize better!. Good luck!

[Rasselas36]

IMO - Licensing doesn't prevent STUPIDITY! If this were the case then we wouldn't have drunk drivers, DUI's, DWI's, reckless driving, speeding, texting, etc. etc. Licensing only takes time and money from sensible and responsible sailors.

[smacksman]

It is important to frequently look behind you. More frequently in busy areas.
This is true on land and on water. Many people do not.

[a64pilot]

Mandatory licensing won’t work, to begin with it would be dumbed way down, look at drivers testing to see an example.
You want something that would work? Have the Insurence companies offer a 10% discount or whatever for successfully competing a course.
I’d sign up for that, but I’d fight mandatory licensing as it gives me nothing.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Mandatory licensing won’t work, to begin with it would be dumbed way down, look at drivers testing to see an example.
You want something that would work? Have the Insurence companies offer a 10% discount or whatever for successfully competing a course.
I’d sign up for that, but I’d fight mandatory licensing as it gives me nothing.

Actually many insurance companies do just that now.

If it's really about "learning" and not "controlling", it would be pretty simple to mandate insurance companies offer an even higher 20% discount for taking boater safety courses. Insurance is a heavily regulated industry and the industry already supports a discount system. It's easy to have the regulators implement it...or suggest they implement it if they don't want it legislated...and I doubt you would get much if any push back.

So really no need for a license. Let the market take care of it.

For comparison, insurance companies are already pushing black boxes for cars. They offer a discount if you plug their black box into the cars computer. Then they correlate the data to crash patterns (lots of panic braking and your rates go up). Right now it's voluntary but expect that once it reaches a certain percentage of vehicles, rates for not using the black box will become punitive.

[lo2jones]

Rule 9 is misunderstood on many levels: this example down to standup paddle boarders thinking they have rights over everyone in and around a busy marina.

[RustyBullets]

Tragedy occurred a year or so ago here in NC: Boater got in front of a car ferry run by NC DOT in the narrow entry channel to Ocracoke, on Hatteras Island, and got run down. One or two people died. Freighters aren't the only ones that can't stop on a dime.