Thoughts about this

[TrentePieds]

As far as I know, what Lord Esher said a hundred and thirty-odd years ago still stands:

" “They (the COLREGS) only apply at a time, when, if either of them does anything contrary to the Regulations, it will cause danger of collision. None of the Regulations apply unless that period of time has arrived. It follows that anything done before the time arrives at which the Regulations apply is immaterial, because anything done before that time cannot produce risk of collision within the meaning of the Regulations”."

I don't think the OP has established that in HIS judgement there really WAS a risk of collision. Given the tenor of his posts, we cannot know that, in his own mind, he had established that. We can only know that his was uncertain about whether a risk (of collision) existed or not. and about what to do if that were the case.

I think we've established that "B" was on Stbd tack and therefore obligated to maintain course and speed in the given situation. Yet"B" altered to stbd. I interpret that to mean that HE judged at some point that due to "A"'s inactivity "a risk" (of collision) existed and observed the requirement that the LAST vessel capable of taking action to avoid a collision (as he deemed himself to be) must do so. In Lord Esher's terms: "B" judged that "the time had arrived (when the COLREGS apply)"

Had the OP been more experienced he might have altered betimes in so obvious a manner that his perception of the situation and his acceptance of his "give way" status would have been obvious to "B". If he couldn't, or daren't, go about, he could have worne. I can think of no maneuver that is more obvious from a distance than a wear!

Fortunately there was no collision, and the OP now has a clear path to gaining more experience - and "book-larnin'" :-)

TP

[rslifkin]

Doesn't the term "wearing" only really apply to square riggers? On a sloop or other common recreational sailing rig wouldn't it just be a jibe?

[Leighpilot]

If the picture is correct , you’re both on port tack , you’re the leeward , stand on vessel. So you are required to hold your course until action by the give way vessel would not be sufficient to avoid collision, and then take action

But superseding all of that k and more importantly, your vessel is not under command. According to the narrative you were unable to alter course because your engine was inoperative. So probably best if you don’t proceed to sea with an inoperative engine or better still , better a better boat.

[rhubstuff]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

What are you looking at?

Lodesman, Sir, I am looking at the diagram, which clearly shows the tack and part of the foot of the mains'l just underneath the foot of the chute on the STARBOARD side, which means the boat is on the PORT tack. (Thank you for circling that exact point.) Also, vessel B is heading dead downwind, which means that the spinnaker pole will be cranked as far aft as possible (to port), as shown, and that the guy will lead from the outboard pole end back to the cockpit, exactly as shown. The spinnaker sheet leads from the clew of the chute back under the boom, as shown. From a sail trimming standpoint, in this situation, you would not have the pole all the way forward while running dead downwind; you would crank it back to the shrouds with the after guy to get it out away from the main, as shown. I agree that the diagram is not very clear, but that's the way I see it. And if that's not the main showing underneath the foot of the chute, what is it? And where is the mains'l?

[TrentePieds]

@ rslifkin:

Depends on where you come from :-)

"To wear" means to bring the wind from one side of the ship to the other in such a manner that you turn your stern through the eye of the wind. Tellingly, in my native Danish, to do so is called "en kovending" meaning "a cow's turn". The reason is that my forebears were farmers as well as seafaring folk, and they had observed that when the stormy winds do blow across the flat land of Denmark, cows, being a tad smarter than a lot of seafaring men, turned themselves around by presenting their arses to the wind.

"To gybe" means to bring a fore'n'aft sail, boomed or not, over from one side of the ship to the other while you are executing a "cows turn", i.e. when you are wearing, or if a shift of wind demands that you do so to be able to maintain your heading. Americans use the spelling "jibe" for "gybe". A "jibe" is, to those of us who speak English, an insulting remark calculated to start a fight :-).

When turning a ship to bring the wind from one side of it to the other, in such a manner that you bring the head of the ship through the winds eye, you "go about". MODERN Americans, ('though not those with roots in New England seafaring) call that "to tack". One can understand the confusion, however. Going about in a square-rigged SHIP (vessels with square sails OTHER than ship-rigged vessels were a little different), required that when the square sails had been braced around, the lower corners of Mainsl and Foresl be shifted. These corners were called "tacks", and as the bracing was completed, and only the "tidy up" remained, the order "Tacks!" was heard.

In a fore'n'after the tacks of the sails are never shifted. We still use the term "on starboard tack" when the wind is on the starboard side. That is because in a square-rigger the starboard tacks were shifted forward when the wind was on the starboard side. The way we use that term in today's fore'n'afters is just a hold over from square rigger days.

So in summary: "Going about" and "Wearing" are evolutions pertaining to the entire vessel. It is immaterial how the vessel is rigged. "Gybing" and "tacking" are evolutions pertaining the handling of particular sails.

Cheers

TP

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Leighpilot

If the picture is correct , you’re both on port tack , you’re the leeward , stand on vessel. So you are required to hold your course until action by the give way vessel would not be sufficient to avoid collision, and then take action

But superseding all of that k and more importantly, your vessel is not under command. According to the narrative you were unable to alter course because your engine was inoperative. So probably best if you don’t proceed to sea with an inoperative engine or better still , better a better boat.

FFS!

Don't know how you rig your spinnaker, but most of us in the real world put the pole on the windward side. Don't confuse the situation - the OP stated the other vessel was starboard and the stand-on vessel. (before he changed his story to the other guy wanting to say hello...)

His vessel in NOT not under command. He was under sail and making way; and he could manoeuvre, in so far as he could turn away, or likely luff up. He most certainly could slow or stop by easing the sheets.

A sailboat can be considered to be NUC, if it is in irons. But that definition does not extend to an inability to complete a tack.

[SaylorMade]

I think it is quite obvious that the illustration is not exactly depicting the situation.

OP stated clearly that it was his/hers obligation to give way, so we can probably safely assume that spinnaker boat was on starboard tack (which the picture does not CLEARLY show, it could honestly be either way).

I seem to remember that it is explicitly stated in the rules, that if you are unable to determine the tack, you should treat it as starboard tack.
Is that just something I have been dreaming, or can any of the experts here chime in ?

Maybe the illustration was meant to teach that situation?

EDIT I found this quote here: https://deckee.com/blog/colregs-an-essential-guide

"When a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a yacht to windward and can’t determine on which tack they are on, they will give way to the other boat."

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

cows, being a tad smarter than a lot of seafaring men, turned themselves around by presenting their arses to the wind.

They ain't that smart. They're putting their sniffers downwind of their prodigious methane-producing ends.

I won't even begin to comment on how they will season their plates. Suffice it to say even the daftest sailor knows not to piss into the wind.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

I seem to remember that it is explicitly stated in the rules, that if you are unable to determine the tack, you should treat it as starboard tack.
Is that just something I have been dreaming, or can any of the experts here chime in ?

I posted that rule at #18

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by rhubstuff

Wrong, B's spinnaker pole is clearly to port because the after guy, which goes to the outboard pole end, is obviously to port. So B is running and on the port tack. A is close-hauled and also on the port tack. The leeward vessel is the stand-on vessel. The windward vessel must give-way. However, if I were A, I would luff up and allow B to pass ahead, out of courtesy.

I think you are not seeing what you think you are seeing. Boat B's spinnaker pole is visible in the drawing (while its main boom is not) and it is on the starboard side. You cannot (or at least I cannot) see any afterguy. What you may be looking at is meant to be the spinnaker sheet. And anyway, the drawing shows the majority of the spinnaker out to the port side and less of it out to the starboard side. To me this looks like starboard jibe with the pole well forward, meaning reaching.

The speculation that Boat B was maneuvering to say "hello" seems like a stretch. People don't often do that, in my experience. More likely he was changing heading to keep the spinnaker filled. Sailboats going down wind in light and shifty conditions often make small (or large) turns to keep the wind coming at the best angle. I often resort to this when short handed or to reduce the need to constantly trim the spinnaker.

Boat A did need to keep in mind that he, on port, might need to maneuver and he should have been better prepared to do so. I might add that a boat with a nonfunctioning motor and which cannot easily turn, should be extra cautious because he could easily get into a bad spot. Fortunately Boat B had the ability to change course and did so when it was necessary, and it sounds like he didn't think anything serious had just transpired.

Maybe it was all "no big deal."

[Jim Cate]

Sheesh, guys... Seems like we have gone from trying to help a fellow with COLREGS to arguing about a small generic graphic of a boat under spinnaker. Lets give it a rest!

Jim

[Mudfoot57]

Some things to consider all be it that they may not be in collision regs or practical in your case, no offence ment.

1) Fly day shapes for a vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver.
2) Fly flags U Y - we do this when sailing with visually impaired sailors onboard as a warning to others to stay clear.
3) In racing rules the windward boat should keep clear anyway.
4) Sort out the rig/ trim of the vessel so it will tack. Any sailing vessel can be trimmed to sail and tack even without a rudder it's a question of seamanship and in your interest to master it with a rudder but you may need to think outside the box.It's not impossible even without a rudder - see report on Scarlett Oyster Middle sea race?
5)If you can't achieve a tack without engine assist perhaps the designer may be able to assist, if not a rigger or yard, something fundamental must be wrong.
6) Compare notes with other owners
7) weight distribution in hull is wrong but might be something you can easily correct.

Please let us know what type of motor sailor and any successful solution.

Sincerely David H

[TrentePieds]

Mudfoot:

The OP has already fessed up that it's a Viksund 31. Not yer N.A. standard, but nothing wrong with it at all.

Here is the scoop:

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/vi...1-goldfish-ms/

Of course the beast will "tack"! I.e. it will "come about", very nicely. All you have to do is speak nicely to it - in Norwegian :-)

The Norwegian phrase for coming about is: "gå over stag". Obviously, you cannot expect the boat to know what you want it to do unless you tell it in language it can understand.

If the boat is reluctant, you could, of course, expand on it a bit: "Ka' du så se at komme over stag, din kælling!"

Cheers

TrentePieds

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Mudfoot57

2) Fly flags U Y - we do this when sailing with visually impaired sailors onboard as a warning to others to stay clear.

Well I know what that means, but I wonder how many others do? It's not something that should normally be signaled by any boat just sailing about.

[carstenb]

I'll throw another wrench(spanner for you english types) into the mix here.

If boat "B" were on autopilot or a windvane, he would describe larger and smaller "S" curves in his course and therefore come closer to "A".

Perhaps that is the reason for "B"'s erratic behavior?

The above was just in jest.

We cannot place any faith in the drawing since I suspect the OP found a drawing that approximated the situation without being exact and simply used it for illustration purposes. We have to take the OP at his word - he was the give way vessel - but didn't give way, so he was obviously wrong.

As for his vessel being impossible to tack without using the engine - I don't think I've ever run across this except perhaps in extremely heavy choppy seas. Had it been me - I would have let my sheets and sail fly, giving notice to "B" that I intended to give way