Thoughts about this

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Hope you are kidding about fishing. Recreational fishing is not fishing according to COLREGS.

Here’s me wishing I hadn’t tried to put some humour into my response.

P.s. I do know that throwing out a rod or two doesn’t make you a fishing vessel under COLREGS - even if you put up the appropriate day shapes!

[girdasso]

Assuming that you know the fundamental port and starboard rule then B must have been on starboard.
In that case you were obliged to take action and the fact that you had difficulty going about is no excuse. The obvious thing you should have done is luff up and lose speed which would indicate to the other boat that you were trying to avoid a collision.
In my view you have to fix your problem of inability to tack without an engine otherwise you are a danger on the water and at risk of causing a serious collision. you should get advice from a suitable expert or trainer to assess what needs to be done to fix this.

[Jammer]

Moderator Hat On

Several posts have been deleted.

- Please be respectful of other posters, in accordance with sitewide policy (see https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ork&page=rules)

- Please refrain from use of humor or sarcasm as doing so is likely to lead to misunderstandings.

- Be aware that the opening poster has made a number of clarifying comments throughout the thread and has announced an intention to discontinue participation in the thread at this point. Accordingly, please refrain from replying to the opening post without reading the balance of the thread.

[Night_Sailor]

Luff your jib and tack around.

[marcvilleneuve]

Easy, knowing you difficulty to tack on port, always be ready to turn starboard 270 degres. That will do.

[GrowleyMonster]

Ah. Another dead horse, well and thoroughly beaten to a pulp, I see.

OP asked an honest question. Not having an extremely comprehensive grasp of the Rules before ever taking charge of a watch or a vessel is my biggest peeve. By that, I don't just mean the actual text of the Rules, but also how best to apply them to real world situations. But he did care enough to ask, because he was in doubt about his actions in the situation he described. A lot of good answers were thrown out there, and predictably, OP got a bit of heat over his actions and question. But as the losing general said after the battle, "learning occurred".

Hopefully he has his sound signals straightened out. A vessel that is ever called upon to make way under engine, should have a whistle, certainly. A VHF is awfully nice to have, even when the vessel is not required to carry one.

Lessons were learned by the OP but there are probably many owners or operators of sailboats or motor sailers or even power boats that should be paying attention here. So Let's summarize all the shouldas and couldas.

STUDY THE RULES, and how they apply in various scenarios. You can never learn too much about Rules. Memorizing the text alone isn't enough, though it is a very good start.

One way or the other, when in doubt as to the other vessel's intentions or in doubt that the other vessel's actions will result in a happy outcome, there needs to be some communication, either by whistle signals or VHF. The other boat could then have said his cheery "hello" over the radio on a working channel after switching from 16. And 5 short blasts, especially repeated, should have the other vessel reconsidering his actions and perhaps, even if he is under sail only, answer in kind. I don't believe Rules prohibits the Sailing Vessel from using sound signals.

Rule 12 is fairly clear and not hard to understand. Unfortunately, the terms "Starboard Tack" and "Port Tack" are not used in the COLREGS. Let us all remember, particularly those who are a bit fuzzy on the concept, that wind coming over the Starboard rail means "Starboard Tack", and vice versa.

Difficulty in tacking can call for the use of other means for giving way such as luffing, heaving to, or wearing. These need to be practiced just as diligently by the beginner as tacking. A sailor who only ever brings the boat onto the other tack by tacking the bow through the wind, is crippling himself and his vessel. A give-way vessel that fails to remember that reducing speed or stopping instead of changing course can sometimes be very good methods for obeying the rules requiring him to give way.

A vessel should be fully operational with all major systems functional, before getting underway. If a boat is equipped with an engine, it should be operable. That lump of iron can come in pretty darn handy in boats that do not handle easily under sail. I'm not going to say it should be regarded as an absolute rule, but let's just say having the engine, if installed, in running condition, ought to be regarded as very important.

I think the OP asked a good question and I hope he doesn't feel too badly ripped for asking it. He learned and I bet there were silent lurkers who come here to learn, who learned from it, too.

[TrentePieds]

Rarely have I seen a growl so well expressed :-)!!

Thanx Growley

TP

[SailorJoJo]

I'll make one final statement because even though I think GrowleyMonster make some good points, he also doesn't seem to have read my clarifications. And I truly appreciate mods trying to get this point across.

The issue was never that I didn't know the rules. The question was what to do if you couldn't follow the rules because of limited steering.

What created the situation was that the other wessel changed course directly towards me several times. BECAUSE I had problems with my engine I had headed out in open ocean hours away from the general coastal traffic so I had time to figuring it out.
My question was never if I did the right or the wrong thing. It was what to do when you KNOW the rules but you can't follow them because of limitations.

With big swells and weak winds my motorsailer will not tack. The option is to turn it around and jybe. As I've pointed out in this thread before, this would be the best solution. It probably wouldn't have solved anything though because the german boat would still have aimed at me. He was trying to talk as we passed by, but (as I've pointed out before) I was so stressed at that point that I was trying to get the engine going.

It wasn't like I didn't change course to try keep my distance as much as I could.

But he turned towards me every time. So when we finally met I was just holding my course.

So here's the thing.
My question was about what to do in a situation where you have limited navigation and can't follow the rules. Did I explain it well? No. Do I explain it well now? Probably not. Will people respond to my first post telling me to just give way? Obviously.

I don't feel ripped or anything like that. Everyone has a right to their opinion in the same way as I do. I just don't have the time to argue with people who are overly argumentative on the web. My biggest peeve is probably that lack of ability to actually read.

[skipperpete]

Thanks for that post sailorjojo and you have my sympathy re tacking under sail, I also have a Viksund.

[Jim Cate]

Jojo, another way to look at this is what to do when the oncoming stand-on boat does not himself follow COLREGS (fails to maintain course and speed), and by so doing, places your difficult to maneuver vessel in a compromised position?

The suggestion to sound five blasts is valid, but not so many yachts have easily accessed LOUD whistles, ones that can be heard over wind and sea noise in a boat bearing down upon you. Further, since the oncoming vessel is not following COLREGS, one could doubt that he would understand your signal if he did hear it! And calling on the VHF when you don't know the name of the vessel is not too likely to be effective.

So, I dunno what the correct response is, given the above assumptions. Heaving to would signal that you are not able to maneuver and reduce any impacts severity, but if your boat will not come about, heaving to isn't so easy. Gybing around seems the best option to me; in light airs a standing gybe is not all that daunting and it would give you more options for avoiding this idiot.

COLREGS are a marvelous set of rules, well thought out for interactions between fellow professional mariners. As one travels the spectrum down towards educated amateurs, yotties, WAFIs and downright belligerent numbskulls, the efficacy of the rules diminishes and eventually looses functionality... as you have seen!

I personally sympathize with you... but would hope that you would find a way to improve your ability to tack and make other maneuvers before spending many more days at sea.

Jim

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by SailorJoJo

What created the situation was that the other wessel changed course directly towards me several times.

With big swells and weak winds my motorsailer will not tack. The option is to turn it around and jybe.

As someone else pointed out, he probably wasn't deliberately pointing at you, but in light, flukey winds was just trying to keep his chute filled.

Gybing is an option, not the only option. You could have luffed up to let him pass, or fallen off and run ahead of him. The latter would have been my preference.

[Ahmet Erkan]

This is post #87 and I don't think the OP's question has been answered. The question on the OP's picture was... "Who gives way, A or B?"... My answer is boat B gives way. If everybody agrees with this answer, no need to reply. Anyone who disagrees, that both boats are on Port tack and boat B is the upwind boat thus must give way, please explain so that we have a closure. The details about "what should have OP done if the give way boat did not give way" is not what I am asking.
Thank you.

[Adelie]

Boat A. is obviously on port tack.
For boat B. You can’t see the main but if you zoom in you can see that the spinnaker pole is on starboard side. Spinnaker pole is generally set opposite mainsail. So if the main is on post them the boat is on starboard tack. Then B would be the stand-on vessel and A would be give-way.
For the sake of argument let’s say it isn’t clear which tack B is on.
Rule-12(iii) indicates:
“if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.”

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/navigati...gamated#rule12

So if it is not clear what tack B is on, A is on port tack and B is to windward then:
A should give-way
B should stand-on.

If you feel that there is evidence from the drawing that B is on port, what are you seeing that leads to that conclusion?

Since the OP acknowledges in the first post that he was the give-Way vessel it seems apparent that in real life he knew the other vessel was on starboard which trumps being the leeward vessel.

[Ahmet Erkan]

"If you feel that there is evidence from the drawing that B is on port, what are you seeing that leads to that conclusion?" Adelie

Regarding Boat B in the OP's drawing :
Bow is in line with the mast so Boat B is coming straight at us.
Mast is tilted to starboard referenced to horizon so the wind is likely to be from her port.
Port free-board is higher than starboard, which is in agreement with the wind coming from her port.
Spinnaker poles typically attach to the mast at a higher point than the boom so the drawing must be showing the boom on starboard (ie: Port Tack) with the spinnaker pole on the port side hidden behind the sail. (Drawing does have a slight error showing a discontinuity in the mast)
Guy on the port side is sticking out commensurate with a spinnaker pole being on port side at about right angle to the boat's center line. The spinnaker is also lopsided to the port commensurate with the assumed and correct positioning of the hidden spinnaker pole for a downwind run.
Some of these observations were already written on previous posts but nobody acknowledged the authors (I am guilty of this as well) nobody agreed or disagreed with these fellows who are probably more clever or experienced than I am.
Again, my intention was to answer the question written on the OP’s drawing, because it is a good question.

What I think is the best action for "Boat A" when a wobbly spinnaker on the windward horizon is observed, the spinnaker boat’s helmsman is shifting in and out of port, starboard tacks and bearing to Boat B increases stops then decreases warning a collision probability comes and goes, Boat B clearly trying to keep the chute flying and or preventing an undesirable gybe..........In this situation don't worry about who has the right of way, come about immediately or gybe 270 degrees immediately (if you are unable to come about) and balance the boat in a starboard tack close hauled course for best speed and maneuverability. Typically a sailboat on a close hauled course can change port/starboard tacks without significant reduction in continued windward gains. However on a starboard tack she will have the right of way without having to luff sails, heave to, stop etc and wait for Sergeant Schultz to pass. I also recommend practicing coming about especially in worse case conditions, or buy a reliable electric bow thruster, keep the engine operational and reliable at all times or sell that boat to a power boater who knows how to maintain the engine. Also, don’t be so hard on Germans, they are the number one country in using wind power per capita instead of hydrocarbon based fuels.
Think about that when you hear sea water temperatures in the Florida straights at 101 degrees Fahrenheit.
Sorry for the long winded post, I didn't have the time to write it shorter.
Cheers to all from Oriental NC
Ahmet

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Ahmet Erkan

Spinnaker poles typically attach to the mast at a higher point than the boom so the drawing must be showing the boom on starboard (ie: Port Tack) with the spinnaker pole on the port side hidden behind the sail. (Drawing does have a slight error showing a discontinuity in the mast)
Guy on the port side is sticking out commensurate with a spinnaker pole being on port side at about right angle to the boat's center line.

Actually this had been addressed, repeatedly. Discontinuity? It's fairly obvious the "boom" is in front of the mast -



The guy is obviously on the stbd side - the angle is wrong for a sheet.
Not that it matters at all - if unsure about vessel B, which obviously one would be, vessel A being port would be required to treat B as stbd and avoid accordingly. Of course A should manoeuvre such that in the case that B was port and was to take action, their respective actions would not bring them into conflict.