Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

What could be misleading is all those fishing boats with their basket twin-cone shapes permanently mounted, announcing "keep clear of me I'm engaged in trawling or have gear extending 150m" as they approach or depart harbour, all gear stowed.

It sure would be nice if the authorities did something about that - some of those shapes are welded in place.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

It sure would be nice if the authorities did something about that - some of those shapes are welded in place.

In the US inform the USCG on Ch-22a when you see it. They don't have the resources to be chasing this down on their own, but if informed they will keep a record of complaints and may send the vessel a letter about this.

[Jim Cate]

As I have said before, we routinely show the anchor ball because of the not so unlikely event of being hit while at anchor (has already happened to us). But we've never used the motor sailing cone, nor have we ever seen one in use in our 40+ years of sailing, from California to Australia, many stops in between.

I generally view the COLREGS as being there to help us coexist with all the other users of the sea, especially the ones regarding maneuvering when near other vesselsl and lighting when it is dark. It is easy to see how not following those rules can lead to tears and small bits of yacht floating about. But it is hard to see how the near universal abstinence from flying the motorsailing cone can cause much harm, to oneself or others. As I see it, the worst such can cause is a vessel giving way to you when it was not required to do so... not correct, but not terribly much of a problem. Yes, one can probably contrive a situation involving multiple vessels where it could be an issue, but consider that in such a case if you were to quickly switch off the engine, you would now be in compliance but the physical situation will not have changed.

On a practical note, the cone, if flown from a spreader (which is the only means of doing so on most yachts) will not be visible from most angles, especially if a headsail is in use. If not visible, what's the point? And for a short handed vessel, having someone hoisting and dousing the cone with each use of the engine is poor usage of crew IMO.

At any rate, the lack of the cone does not seem to have had a big influence on accident rates. Perhaps a better way of expressing this is that I've never heard of an accident due to the lack of said cone.

Jim (the scofflaw)

[a64pilot]

I’m just going to guess that it’s probable that the Boat can be seen before the cone?
I have seen one anchor ball being used on one pleasure Boat, that was in the mooring field in Vero Beach Fl, which I assume in a mooring field no ball or light is required?

I have seen many ships and tugs not display and anchor ball, in fact I have only noticed one barge that did, in truth I was wondering if that was some kind of Sat antenna or something before I realized it was an anchor ball, they are so uncommon.

I’m not saying don’t display, just don’t expect it to change behavior of the other vessel if you do.

[Jim Cate]

I have seen one anchor ball being used on one pleasure Boat, that was in the mooring field in Vero Beach Fl, which I assume in a mooring field no ball or light is required?

Depends on where you are. Some areas in Oz now require anchor lights on moored vessels, and I totally agree with that rule. Can't see the need for anchor ball on a moored boat (in a mooring field), for they are visually obvious and their location suggests being stationary.

And as to expectations of behavior modification in others... WRT anchor balls, I'm not expecting much from other boaters, but do expect some help if a collision resulted in a court case. When we were T-boned in Tassie, the offender was a penniless dropout, no assets, no cash, no hope of recovery of our costs... so it didn't matter. Had he been a prosperous solicitor, it might have helped!

Jim

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

but consider that in such a case if you were to quickly switch off the engine, you would now be in compliance but the physical situation will not have changed.

Or better, just put it in neutral

[Exile]

Originally Posted by StuM

Or better, just put it in neutral

Good point!

[30yearslater]

While on the subject of rules and they're effectiveness; while in Cobourg a few weeks ago there was a dredge operating at the harbor entrance. This thing was paddlewheel powered with dual paddlewheels and was a suction dredge discharging through a pipe off the starboard side. Kinda neat in that the effluent was being pumped to a crater in the beach as a way to separate the water from sand and rebuild the beach. What was interesting was the day shapes, those being ball, diamond, ball displayed from the stbd side. These were so small as to being invisible until I walked down the pier to look at the contraption. It was quite an interesting looking thing and seemed to be doing an amazing job. The point is a little common sense goes a long way to avoiding slavish obedience to rules largely written to cover large commercial ships.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

... The point is a little common sense goes a long way to avoiding slavish obedience to rules largely written to cover large commercial ships.

Of course! The rule on displaying a cone when motor-sailing would have been important in the days when going about on a sailing ship required all hands on deck and twenty minutes of hard labour, while a steam-assisted vessel could duck around the stern and not worry about losing hard-earned ground to windward, but without her steam boilers assisting she would be in a worse situation than the sailing ship. Nowadays it hardly matters but the rule still makes sense.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

While on the subject of rules and they're effectiveness; while in Cobourg a few weeks ago there was a dredge operating at the harbor entrance. This thing was paddlewheel powered with dual paddlewheels and was a suction dredge discharging through a pipe off the starboard side. Kinda neat in that the effluent was being pumped to a crater in the beach as a way to separate the water from sand and rebuild the beach. What was interesting was the day shapes, those being ball, diamond, ball displayed from the stbd side. These were so small as to being invisible until I walked down the pier to look at the contraption. It was quite an interesting looking thing and seemed to be doing an amazing job. The point is a little common sense goes a long way to avoiding slavish obedience to rules largely written to cover large commercial ships.

“Common sense” is often not dependable.

The day shapes displayed by dredgers are invaluable. Ball/diamond/ball means “restricted ability to manoeuvre”. In addition, two black diamonds indicate the safe side to pass and two black balls indicate the wrong side. In the above case the correct side to pass may have been clearcut, but this often not apparent. If these signals are not displayed and recognised, you could get yourself into a HEAP of trouble.

SWL

[30yearslater]

Interesting replies to my comments. I don't mean to imply the Colregs have no use in operating our playthings but do not rely on them as the sole source of avoiding a bad situation. In the case of our dredge the dayshapes weren't visible until on land a few feet away. Definitely not visible approaching the harbor as they were hidden behind the mast supporting them. Additionally there was no indicated side favorable to passing. So what to do? Slow down, luff the sails and approach dead slow until the situation was obvious. No rule for stopping your vessel to assess a situation. In this case the dredge operator was moving forward and reverse clearing the harbor entrance. Waiting approximately 200' clear of the entrance he reversed direction and cleared the entrance. With the pipeline, trestles and dredge fully assessed it was a small matter to proceed into the harbor and received a polite wave from the dredge operator. This is what I mean by slavish obedience to the rules. Take action early to indicate there is no risk of collision and avoid the horn blowing, radio calls, light flashing and so forth.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Of course! The rule on displaying a cone when motor-sailing would have been important in the days when going about on a sailing ship required all hands on deck and twenty minutes of hard labour, while a steam-assisted vessel could duck around the stern and not worry about losing hard-earned ground to windward, but without her steam boilers assisting she would be in a worse situation than the sailing ship. Nowadays it hardly matters but the rule still makes sense.

Well, displaying the cone is important NOW, so that another vessel crossing knows who is supposed to stand on and who is supposed to give way. Confusion is dangerous. All the signals required by the Rules are intended to avoid confusion and provide clarity. So follow them!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

Interesting replies to my comments. I don't mean to imply the Colregs have no use in operating our playthings but do not rely on them as the sole source of avoiding a bad situation. In the case of our dredge the dayshapes weren't visible until on land a few feet away. Definitely not visible approaching the harbor as they were hidden behind the mast supporting them. Additionally there was no indicated side favorable to passing. So what to do? Slow down, luff the sails and approach dead slow until the situation was obvious. No rule for stopping your vessel to assess a situation. In this case the dredge operator was moving forward and reverse clearing the harbor entrance. Waiting approximately 200' clear of the entrance he reversed direction and cleared the entrance. With the pipeline, trestles and dredge fully assessed it was a small matter to proceed into the harbor and received a polite wave from the dredge operator. This is what I mean by slavish obedience to the rules. Take action early to indicate there is no risk of collision and avoid the horn blowing, radio calls, light flashing and so forth.

Common sense, or rather, good seamanship (not exactly the same thing, because good seamanship is not "common"), is absolutely part of the Rules, embodied in Rule 2, the most important rule of them all.


But it's important not to confuse "common sense" with ignorance. What you have described here is good seamanship and absolutely encouraged by the Rules. But some people ignore the rules in favor of doing whatever they feel under the circumstances they should do, ignoring the Rules and not really understanding what is seamanlike. So you have to be careful talking about "common sense". You are allowed to deviate from the Rules when it's demanded by good seamanship (Rule 2!), but that does NOT mean that you can just ignore them. Deviating from them has to be done with intelligence.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

The point is a little common sense goes a long way to avoiding slavish obedience to rules largely written to cover large commercial ships.

Or more to the point:



A little commonsense is required under Rule 2 (b) and in inherent in the part of Rule 5 which states "so as to make a full appraisal of the situation"

"Slavish obedience" to those rules will reduce the likelihood of reaching a point where risk of collision requires action under other rules.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

While on the subject of rules and they're effectiveness; while in Cobourg a few weeks ago there was a dredge operating at the harbor entrance. This thing was paddlewheel powered with dual paddlewheels and was a suction dredge discharging through a pipe off the starboard side. Kinda neat in that the effluent was being pumped to a crater in the beach as a way to separate the water from sand and rebuild the beach. What was interesting was the day shapes, those being ball, diamond, ball displayed from the stbd side. These were so small as to being invisible until I walked down the pier to look at the contraption. It was quite an interesting looking thing and seemed to be doing an amazing job. The point is a little common sense goes a long way to avoiding slavish obedience to rules largely written to cover large commercial ships.

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

Interesting replies to my comments. I don't mean to imply the Colregs have no use in operating our playthings but do not rely on them as the sole source of avoiding a bad situation. In the case of our dredge the dayshapes weren't visible until on land a few feet away. Definitely not visible approaching the harbor as they were hidden behind the mast supporting them. Additionally there was no indicated side favorable to passing. So what to do? Slow down, luff the sails and approach dead slow until the situation was obvious. No rule for stopping your vessel to assess a situation. In this case the dredge operator was moving forward and reverse clearing the harbor entrance. Waiting approximately 200' clear of the entrance he reversed direction and cleared the entrance. With the pipeline, trestles and dredge fully assessed it was a small matter to proceed into the harbor and received a polite wave from the dredge operator. This is what I mean by slavish obedience to the rules. Take action early to indicate there is no risk of collision and avoid the horn blowing, radio calls, light flashing and so forth.

I think I’m missing the point here . Had the dredger displayed the correct day shapes, there would have been no need to stop and try and determine how to pass safely. Had there been other vessels close by, stopping may not even have been a safe thing for you to do.

COLREGS may not cover every scenario, but it helps remove much uncertainty, particularly in a simple situation such as this.