Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Olddan1943

Going to the west coast with a boat is not an option. Not with Calif tax laws.

There’s a lot more to the west coast than CA.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Olddan1943

Going to the west coast with a boat is not an option. Not with Calif tax laws.

Florida has a west coast too

[BigBoater917]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

BTW, the USCG confirmed to me that BoatUS page is wrong - the engine DOES have to be in gear and actually propelling the vessel for it to be considered a motorboat. The engine just being on and out of gear does not change a sailboat's status. I thought that was clear from the colregs rule, but also thought it worth double checking with USCG because I was surprised that BoatUS would get it wrong.

Do you have a link to that USCG ruling? We're having a similar discussion on GCaptain.

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

BTW, the USCG confirmed to me that BoatUS page is wrong - the engine DOES have to be in gear and actually propelling the vessel for it to be considered a motorboat. The engine just being on and out of gear does not change a sailboat's status. I thought that was clear from the colregs rule, but also thought it worth double checking with USCG because I was surprised that BoatUS would get it wrong.

And what happens in court in the aftermath of a collision?

Would it not be argued that a sailing boat with engine on, but not in gear, could have easily engaged its gearbox to avoid the collision?

Of course it would.

That's been the advice since before 1874.

See Charles Bushell, The Rigger's Guide and the Seaman's Assistant: Containing Practical Instructions for Completely Rigging Ships. 5th ed. The Hard, Portsmouth: Griffin & Co. 1874. p. 221.

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

And what happens in court in the aftermath of a collision?

Would it not be argued that a sailing boat with engine on, but not in gear, could have easily engaged its gearbox to avoid the collision?

Of course it would.

That's been the advice since before 1874.

See Charles Bushell, The Rigger's Guide and the Seaman's Assistant: Containing Practical Instructions for Completely Rigging Ships. 5th ed. The Hard, Portsmouth: Griffin & Co. 1874. p. 221.

If you are trying to get that deceptive wouldn’t the sailboat just turn the engine off and thus the argument you just made is moot. This could go on for days and is the reason that I have been arguing that what is actually happening on the sailboat is of little importance. What the captain is declaring to the world is happening is the only thing an external boat can deal with.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck a DNA test is not needed to call it a duck.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

See Charles Bushell, The Rigger's Guide and the Seaman's Assistant: Containing Practical Instructions for Completely Rigging Ships. 5th ed. The Hard, Portsmouth: Griffin & Co. 1874. p. 221.

I'd hardly consider a "riggers guide" to be an authoritative source for Admiralty Court rulings.

[NevisDog]

So maybe the courteous thing would be for a boat under sail, while running its engines in neutral, to hoist the cone. It only becomes an issue while beating up a narrow channel, or in very crowded waters, thus the sailboat with engine running (not in gear) can announce to other sailboats, "Don't bother keeping out of my way as I can easily manoeuvre around you when necessary by engaging gear." Now that would be common courtesy, wouldn't it?

But until that cone is hoisted he is asking to be treated equally with other sailboats.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

BTW, the USCG confirmed to me that BoatUS page is wrong - the engine DOES have to be in gear and actually propelling the vessel for it to be considered a motorboat. The engine just being on and out of gear does not change a sailboat's status. I thought that was clear from the colregs rule, but also thought it worth double checking with USCG because I was surprised that BoatUS would get it wrong.

I would have thought that Col Reg was self evident, the col regs dont talk about motor boats, they talk of a vessell operating mechanical propulsion, It doesnt matter if the engines are running it matters if the vessel is operation mechanical propulsion.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

So maybe the courteous thing would be for a boat under sail, while running its engines in neutral, to hoist the cone. It only becomes an issue while beating up a narrow channel, or in very crowded waters, thus the sailboat with engine running (not in gear) can announce to other sailboats, "Don't bother keeping out of my way as I can easily manoeuvre around you when necessary by engaging gear." Now that would be common courtesy, wouldn't it?

But until that cone is hoisted he is asking to be treated equally with other sailboats.

And he is entitled to that

[markpierce]

Sailboats going neutral on their engines in an attempt to gain privilege is deceitful and unseaman-like. Worthy of disdain.

A motorboat with steadying sails, not to be confused with a sailboat:

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Sailboats going neutral on their engines in an attempt to gain privilege is deceitful and unseaman-like. Worthy of disdain.

A motorboat with steadying sails, not to be confused with a sailboat:

I see sails so this a sailboat, only becomes a motorboat after you hoist the cone.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Sailboats going neutral on their engines in an attempt to gain privilege is deceitful and unseaman-like. Worthy of disdain.

A motorboat with steadying sails, not to be confused with a sailboat:

That is quite clearly "A vessel proceeding under sail". Whether it is "also being propelled by machinery " is unclear. Where's your cone?

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Sailboats going neutral on their engines in an attempt to gain privilege is deceitful and unseaman-like. Worthy of disdain.

A motorboat with steadying sails, not to be confused with a sailboat:

You may think that but I would treat you as a sailboat without the motoring cone. That is why there is confusion. You shouldn’t have to know about how much sail area is needed to drive a particular boat to determine if it is a sailboat. If you were going 8 knots it might be abundantly clear but what if you were drifting at 3?

[Olddan1943]

Originally Posted by jkleins

You may think that but I would treat you as a sailboat without the motoring cone. That is why there is confusion. You shouldn’t have to know about how much sail area is needed to drive a particular boat to determine if it is a sailboat. If you were going 8 knots it might be abundantly clear but what if you were drifting at 3?

Call and ask. Try to be polite too.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by markpierce

A motorboat with steadying sails, not to be confused with a sailboat:

I have seen a motor-sailor like this with a big cone painted directly on the sails.