Trouble with paying crew?

[jmschmidt]

Arrandir, very good advise here from just about everyone. Please heed it.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

While the USA has more enforcement resources, and more rules to be enforced, than many countries, as has been discussed in this thread -- it is not just a USA issue.

Tell no one and you have no business. To book any business you have to tell someone. One of the upsides to being legal is you can advertise openly.


Pride cometh before the fall...often in the form of over estimating ones "wisdom".

If you start (regularly) advertising, you're commercial, period.

[TheThunderbird]

WTF... why is anyone onboard??

You need or Want company/help: free guest/crew
You pretend help: paid up workers
You want to raise money: paying clients

Insurers think alike, btw
The grey area is how to manage voluntary contributions vs out-of-pocket sharing (cash pot)

but, anyone needs to clarify which one of those 3 cases applies...

I don't ask for money from people I like to have at home (onboard), but deserve the right to decide about everything in full.

I ask people to sign a letter of understanding about it. No money, no rights , just a mutual courtesy.

Of course, gentlemen leave with in-kind presents to the boat, that which is symbolic yet a permanent memory of them l much value.

[Arrandir]

Originally Posted by GTom

Until no trouble happens, most likely no one will notice/bother. In case of an accident though, it all depends on how good your lawyer is. Guests paying at the pump and the grocery store would be the safest bet I suppose. Just as you, that's what I do with car-sharing among friends as well.

Thanks for all the replies. I think I will go for GTom's solution. Over a year, it's not that much more money I will get if they pay a contribution for maintenance. The money is not the most important, I would like to meet interesting people.

[T-Birder]

First I'm not wealthy and second I'm not American.
My background is navel.


People "needing" crew for passages and charging or sharing expenses (whatever) are cheap and are taking advantage of the circumstances that have arisen over some 30+ years of "landlubbers or weekend sailors" willing to pay for an adventure and in doing so, taking away the lively hood of real competent sailors. The fact that it is expensive to hire as mentioned is irrelevant.



That having been said, it's beyond me why anyone with real experience and ability would pay some guy/gale to crew on a passage. What if the crew member is more competent and knowledgeable than the skipper ... what if , what if ? It would seem to me that the folks who are willing to pay are more likely not competent or knowledgeable enough for if they knew they wouldn't be paying.


Going to sea is serious business. It can be fun, but it is always serious and it requires experience and knowledge (actual that's the fun part). Recreational "cruisers" have no business offering passage for fee service: hence the term "recreational".



If you need crew to help, well that's what you're asking for "help" and if someone says they will help with your passage then that's what they are providing. "Help" is not a fee for service transaction in the true sense: there is no exchange of moneys. This practice is perfectly fine, either way the obligation to each other is simply good will. But if you "need" crew then pay for it, that way everything is understood and clear as mud. You can't expect paying crew to follow your directions/commands ..etc.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by T-Birder

People "needing" crew for passages and charging or sharing expenses (whatever) are cheap and are taking advantage of the circumstances that have arisen over some 30+ years of "landlubbers or weekend sailors" willing to pay for an adventure and in doing so, taking away the lively hood of real competent sailors. The fact that it is expensive to hire as mentioned is irrelevant.

That having been said, it's beyond me why anyone with real experience and ability would pay some guy/gale to crew on a passage. What if the crew member is more competent and knowledgeable than the skipper ... what if , what if ? It would seem to me that the folks who are willing to pay are more likely not competent or knowledgeable enough for if they knew they wouldn't be paying.

Going to sea is serious business. It can be fun, but it is always serious and it requires experience and knowledge (actual that's the fun part). Recreational "cruisers" have no business offering passage for fee service: hence the term "recreational".

The most important thing for crew to do is to keep watch. This give the captain and more experienced crew rest time. My standing rule for all crew was "if anything unusual happens wake either the next person that will be coming on watch or the captain (me)". By taking on crew I am providing something - experience. The only cost to then is their personal expenses.

The fact that it is expensive to hire is not irrelevant. I want people that will enjoy the adventure, not someone on their 100th passage looking to get paid and move on to the next job.

[john61ct]

People with little money - could not afford to buy a home for example - are buying boats cheap and heading out there with little knowledge and few skills. No way can they afford to pay for professional crew, so no one's losing out on paid work. And likely their boats are marginally seaworthy, so a pro would pass anyway.

Many competent sailors, knowing what it takes to upfit a truly seaworthy ship, understand they cannot (yet) afford a decent one of their own.

Some / many people, in both categories, aren't too concerned about risking their lives, easy come easy go. So risking legal or financial consequences aren't even a blip on their radar.

It's a laissez faire world, you roll the dice, pays your money and you takes your choice.

Let 'em get together, life is short, getting shorter all the time.

[T-Birder]

#36


...keeping watch ...


Sounds like you are then wanting "help" and not wanting "crew", but you might want to feed him/her for their help.



Not sure what expenses there are at sea the "help" should be covering.


But if you want "crew" (because you need ...), their enjoyment of the passage is not the point. The "crew" is to perform (competently) the duties required of the passage and, yes, get paid.


The issue I have is charging people as if they're suppose to be "crew" and/or the experience, that's BS ... doing so is acting as an unlicensed, unqualified guide/instructor or airbnb afloat with the owner on board. If the people on your vessel are "paying", you are functioning as a business. It is black and white.

And BTW the skippers that refer to their wives and or family members as "crew" ,one way or another, often find out it is not appreciated , lol.


In racing the term crew refers to the people as a team, paid or otherwise, performing the function(s) to achieve successful results and all that entails: in a sense, their job.



So if you want "help" sailing your boat ... fill your boots, but if you need "crew" then you should pay. If you receive moneys from persons on your vessel and for the expressed purpose of being on your vessel, you're a "commercial" business operating a "recreational" vessel.



I cannot legally charge someone (advertise) to go sailing with me this afternoon nor can I accept payment from someone to take them sailing this afternoon. I have a "recreational" vessel deemed for that purpose and may not operate it otherwise. If I wish to do "commercial" enterprise then I must adhere to the commercial requirements and on and on it goes. The only thing I can do is ask for someone to help me sail my boat this afternoon and they are not to pay me because if I except then I am in trouble.

[john61ct]

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is."

— Benjamin Brewster

[GTom]

@T-Birder: so you would outlaw all car-sharing/hitchhiking as well? I think the borderline is quite clear: once someone is actively advertising the same "boring" trip he had made hundreds of times, asking for more than just contribution to the grocery & fuel bill, that's a for-profit* activity and by definition, business. If done without a proper license: illegal. The rest is not business, grown-up people making their grown-up decisions.

*profit=positive return after subtracting all costs.

Professional crew won't loose jobs to this, professional crew go near boats, that take "hitchhikers" only at the very beginning of their career, when they are collecting miles/experience instead of using "mile builders" offered by scarcely available and crowded sailing schools.

In reality of course local regulations and your insurance policy are what counts, not the emphatic question "am I ruining someone else's business if I accept a guest to pay his own restaurant bill". In a red tape jurisdiction might very well be, that the skipper has all kind odd obligations. This case I'd stay away from letting any strangers on board.

[T-Birder]

Profit has nothing to do with it, for one and car sharing/hitch hiking/riding bicycles for that matter is not a comparison ... Uber vs taxis would be or if I decided to go around asking people if they wanted a ride, but oh, you need to chip in for gas and any other fluids need (say if it rains).


Life is very nuanced but it's important to pay attention to the fundamentals.



But I understand how people feel about this ... they call it the shared economy ... and it does make sense. Now convince the capitalist ... in order to participate in the common wealth you have to play by their rules and even then only a few may do so.


Happy Sailing

[GTom]

I suppose different people feel different way...
- A charterer or a sailing school obviously sees any other boating opportunity a competition. Delivery skippers may as well, because an individual owner can recruit an amateur crew and can deliver his boat wherever he wishes.
- A single-simple boat owner would like company AND prefer not to pay any extra for it. - A less experienced boat owner may pick the brains of a much more experienced guest. Here the right place of the incurring costs are on the owner.
- A holiday sailor, seeking adventure, may well be horrified by the pricing of sailing schools & Co, or can't even find an operator in an area where he/she WANT TO SAIL. Obviously, just in many other areas in life, this is a volunteer work, where the sailor covers his/her own costs. And does it quite happily, because he/she can sail where no schools/etc are sailing and because there are a thousand of other candidates without boat who want to crew.
- Professional crew: don't mind, they want to crew expensive boats where the pay is good.
- Authorities: is it an organized activity, a hidden business, avoiding taxes and regulations?
- Insurance: who is liable if a guest has food poisoning/loose a finger to the winch, etc? Similar questions also come up in case you organize a garden party at home, the answers vary by jurisdiction.

[Olly75]

I think there is a big difference between the approach in the US and Europe (and possibly the rest of the world as well).

The crew sites, for example crew seekers, make available a basic contract for skippers and crew covering what is expected from both parties, with specific advice that a charge of $15 dollars a day for expenses.

As a newly minted day skipper with an ambition to sail the world, I decided to do a test run and joined a boat in the Canaries to cross that Atlantic. Charge was £10 a day for the trip, which to my mind was an absolute bargain- there were no positions available with professional delivery skippers (there's alot of people out there trying to get experience), and there was no way I could afford a school organised passage- it was actually a school that suggested I get on crewseekers- so I was happy to pay and get the experience.

[denverd0n]

It is really very simple. If you are charging them a fee then they are not "crew," they are "passengers."

Why is this so hard for so many people to understand?

[T-Birder]

# 44
Exactly ...



RE: Hitch hiking
I don't ever recall being asked to contribute when receiving a ride that I was clearly advertising for "faire de pusse", sometimes share the driving. If I were asked I would certainly pass on the ride and noting " ...what a cheap bugger".


#40
"Professional crew won't loose jobs to this, professional crew go near boats, that take "hitchhikers" only at the very beginning of their career, when they are collecting miles/experience instead of using "mile builders" offered by scarcely available and crowded sailing schools."


All the more reason they should be paid, all be it entry level and documented. If you "need crew" to make passage then pay, otherwise learn how to be a solo sailor.


"Hitch hiking sailors" I think is an oxymoron ... sailors do what's required to "sail" the vessel, hitchhikers are along for the ride ... historically, free passage could be obtained for exchange of "sailor/crew" services but otherwise they called them passengers when paying and stowaways when not.