Unconventional insurance for unconventional boats

[unbusted67]

I’m looking at a 48 foot boat that is engineless in the tradition of the maine schooners. This particular boat is fiberglass. Geico seems to be rejecting me based on the lack of an engine. Anyone have any recommendations for outside the box insurance?

[BlueH2Obound]

Put an outboard bracket with outboard engine on the back. Now it has an engine! Try for insurance again.

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound

Put an outboard bracket with outboard engine on the back. Now it has an engine! Try for insurance again.

I don't want to do that!

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I don't want to do that!

You can probably make a removable one. I am planning to do the same for emergency use.

[Statistical]

Put in an electric motor solely for getting in and out of berth (and emergency propulsion)?

I had no idea that insurance companies would care that a boat doesn't have an engine although I have never had a boat without an engine. Maybe check other insurance companies or talk to a broker to see if this is a universal concern or just a geico thing. Also worth talking to prior owner about it given it will be an issue for sale and obviously something they had to deal with too.

[Montanan]

Insurance is a negotiation, wherein the insured desires to pay someone else [the insurer] to assume a defined risk.

So look at the negotiation from the perspective of the insurer, you are asking them to insure a large vessel that has no engine and thus can't get out of harm's way and / or will drift with current.

The vessel is not the norm and definitely a hazard to navigate and a liability waiting to happen.

There are many fish in the sea, and this one is not a keeper from an insurance company's perspective.

It is easy to have insurance underwritten for small vessels that can be manually powered but IMHO, a large craft without mechanical propulsion, nah, I don't see that ever being underwritten, except as a permanently moored houseboat, with a covenant that insurance coverage ends if the vessel becomes detached from its tie to a dock.

[Nekton73]

Does the current owner have insurance, and if yes can you insure with the same company? Have you asked them what their experience is/was trying to get insurance for the boat?


Possibly just get liability insurance to satisfy basic marina and boat yard requirements? You'll be on the hook for any other damages but at least you'd be covered for the essentials

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I’m looking at a 48 foot boat that is engineless in the tradition of the maine schooners. This particular boat is fiberglass. Geico seems to be rejecting me based on the lack of an engine. Anyone have any recommendations for outside the box insurance?

How many "Maine Schooners" these days go without an engine? Even actual museum pieces? I would put such a boat pretty far out into being an affectation, and I would not want it added into MY risk pool!

But... moving to the (hopefully) helpful part of my posting: Asking a mass market outfit like Geico to insure such a vessel is just a waste of time. You need to talk to people with programs specifically for odd ball boats.

One place that MIGHT be able to help is Gowrie Group. They do write insurance for classic vessels, so they might not look oddly at you when you ask about it. Be prepared to pay steeply for it, however.

[alctel]

Dolphin will insurance almost anything but are fairly pricey

[Montanan]

Perhaps contact the Maine Windjammer Association since they have a fleet of such vessel types and they may have leads to insurers.

https://www.sailmainecoast.com/contact-us/

Maine Windjammer Association
P.O. Box 1083
Rockland, Maine 04841
1-800-807-WIND

Ask the Captains
Got a question for the captains of the fleet? Your direct line to all of the captains of the fleet is via our Ask the Captains page.

https://www.sailmainecoast.com/ask-the-captains/

Brochure Request
For brochures, you may make a request for a packet of all of our vessels' brochures via our brochure packet request page, or you may call 1-800-807-9463.

General Information
800-807-9463
info@sailmainecoast.com
Media or Press Requests
For questions regarding media or press requests.

207-450-9943
pr@sailmainecoast.com
Advertising or Membership
Questions regarding advertising or membership can be directed to Jenny Tobin.

jenny@sailmainecoast.com


Bon voyages.

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Perhaps contact the Maine Windjammer Association since they have a fleet of such vessel types and they may have leads to insurers.

https://www.sailmainecoast.com/contact-us/

Maine Windjammer Association
P.O. Box 1083
Rockland, Maine 04841
1-800-807-WIND

Ask the Captains
Got a question for the captains of the fleet? Your direct line to all of the captains of the fleet is via our Ask the Captains page.

https://www.sailmainecoast.com/ask-the-captains/

Brochure Request
For brochures, you may make a request for a packet of all of our vessels' brochures via our brochure packet request page, or you may call 1-800-807-9463.

General Information
800-807-9463
info@sailmainecoast.com
Media or Press Requests
For questions regarding media or press requests.

207-450-9943
pr@sailmainecoast.com
Advertising or Membership
Questions regarding advertising or membership can be directed to Jenny Tobin.

jenny@sailmainecoast.com


Bon voyages.

Thanks, I believe all of schooners are under Jones act insurance which is another thing entirely. I definitely thought of this though. Thanks.

I like the guy on here saying what a threat large engineless boats are. I think the windjammer association and 200 years or safe nivation would disagree.

-Ben

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I like the guy on here saying what a threat large engineless boats are. I think the windjammer association and 200 years or safe nivation would disagree.

-Ben

It doesn't matter what they think it matters what insurance companies will think. A large out of control vessel with no means of propulsion is going to be an increased risk of the insurance company making a payout.

Large increase in risk or minor one? Who knows but given the market for large boats without propulsion are essentially a rounding error it is an easy one for insurance companies to avoid.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

Thanks, I believe all of schooners are under Jones act insurance which is another thing entirely. I definitely thought of this though. Thanks.

I like the guy on here saying what a threat large engineless boats are. I think the windjammer association and 200 years or safe nivation would disagree.

-Ben

Your welcome.

I haven't yet had the pleasure of making your acquaintance but would like to see your schooner. Can you post some pictures?

It will take special skill of the master and the crew to maneuver.

On two occasions when my engine became inoperable, I have solo sailed into my marina and slip; required a lot of fast action, raising the swing keel so as to not touch the bottom, dropping the foresail and main, steering, lassoing a dock cleat to slow the boat before banging into the pier, making fast with dock lines. Was very glad that there wasn't anyone else maneuvering in the fairways as I passed through the marina to my berth.

Gained the applause of the neighboring boat owners as they watched my sailing in under full sail and rather strong winds. It would have been more challenging if there was only modest wind because one looses steerage control if the boat is not making way, albeit when the boat is making way quickly, anything one does allude with will be harsh, but then that is what a sturdy bow with a fine entry is made for, so as to readily ride up onto the deck of the pier to come to a halt and then to ramp down back into the water.
Rather similar to beaching the bow of my sailed boat to go ashore, but admittedly a bit clunkier running up and against the dock.

Whereas I have experienced with blunt bows, that they just go kabang and make an abrupt halt instead of a gliding ramping halt.

An unpinned swing keel also makes for gliding halt into the shallows, I call that maneuvering by Braille.


Good luck with your insurance.

FYI:

https://ami-ins.com/jones-act-insurance/

Jones Act insurance is a type of coverage that protects employers from liability if a crew member is injured due to negligence while working on a maritime vessel. The Jones Act is a federal law that allows injured seamen to pursue compensation for medical bills, lost wages, and pain and suffering. The Jones Act is different from workers' compensation, which is usually not available to maritime workers. The Jones Act also requires employers to provide transportation, wages, maintenance, and cure for injured seamen.

Prior to the passing of the Jones Act in 1920 there were no written laws (statues) by Congress to ensure that injured U.S. seamen would be provided for if they were injured. For many years, injured seamen relied upon Maritime Law for their recovery. Maritime law or admiralty law is a mixture of common law, traditions and practices adopted by ancient seafaring nations, and incorporated into the American legal system over time.

Jones Act insurance provides coverage for the Jones Act. The Jones Act provides for two types of remedies for seamen. First, the employer is bound by law to compensate an injured seaman for: “Transportation, Wages, Maintenance and Cure“. “Transportation and Wages” are paid until the voyage is complete. “Maintenance” and “Cure” are paid until the seaman has reached his or her maximum medical cure.



If the injury was caused in any way by negligence on behalf of the employer, the injured seaman may also be entitled to compensation for pain and suffering, lost wages, and other damages. U.S. Maritime Law may also provide benefits for injuries or deaths if the vessel was found to be “unseaworthy”. A vessel is considered unseaworthiness if the vessel or its crew were not reasonably fit for their intended use and that the unseaworthiness caused or contributed to the injury. The courts have used very liberal labeling to define “unseaworthiness”, and typically unseaworthiness claims are not overly difficult to prove.

Would an engineless vessel be considered unseaworth for its intended use, in these days of propulsion power?

The Jones Act covers not only the members of a crew, but the masters of that crew as well (such as commercial divers ). That is, anyone who has a connection that is both substantial in nature and duration to a specific vessel, or to a fleet of vessels, and whose duties contribute to the function or mission of that vessel or fleet. Generally, anyone who spends more than 30% of their time on a vessel that is in navigation, will qualify as a Jones Act seaman. It is important to understand that the terms duration and nature, when talking about someone’s connection to a ship, are traditionally construed by the courts to be exceptionally broad when finding as to whether or not an employee qualifies for Jones Act coverage.

. . .

A seaman who is injured or becomes sick while in the service of a vessel has a right to recover, regardless of whether the seaman or the ship’s owner was negligent in the accident that caused the injury. In other words, even if the ship owner did not do anything wrong, the seaman can still recover maintenance and cure. Maintenance and cure must be paid even if the incident did not take place on board the vessel, so long as the seaman was still in the service of the ship. This is also the case if the injury or sickness is not the result of their employment. For instance, a seaman would still be entitled to maintenance and cure even if he slipped walking from the ship to a local fast food restaurant while the ship was docked.

A seaman is entitled to maintenance and cure until such time as the seaman is cured, or until everything has been done that can medically be done in the way of working toward a cure. This can include doctors, hospitalization, nursing, medicine, as well as board and lodging that is considered to be similar to what the seaman would have received if still on board the ship. The injured seaman is also entitled to the wages he would have earned throughout the duration of the contract.