USCG registration question

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Since the USCG will be issuing a title they want to ensure that no other title exists or that it has been properly transferred and canceled.

One slight correction...

The USCG does not issue a title of ownership. The USCG documents the vessel as a US flagged vessel.

On the USCG vessels documentation certificate there is a note on the back that reads "The certificate on the face of this document is not conclusive evidence of title in any proceeding where ownership is in issue. Complete records are on file at the NVDC. The sale or transfer section below is provided for convenience only."

It is provided for convenience because on sale or transfer the USCG vessel documentation must be returned/surrendered to the NVDC.

The records at NVDC may not provide a complete history of ownership.

To the OP....you must provide proof of ownership regardless of whether you call that a "title" or a "bill of sale" before you can register/document (flagged country) a vessel.

It would be much easier if we clarified terms.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The issue is the options to the question

You are correct.

Even I misused/conflated the term "registration" in my previous post.

Maybe if we switched the forum to communicate in Esperanza we might prevent some of the misunderstandings.

[Dsanduril]

Let’s go straight to the source, as that is what the NVDC will do:

§67.53 Methods of establishing title.
Title to a vessel may be established through one of the following methods:

(a) Simplified method without evidence of build. The owner must produce a copy of the last registration of the vessel (State, Federal, or foreign) and evidence which establishes chain of title from that registration to the present owner.

(b) Simplified method with evidence of build. The owner must produce a copy of the last registration of the vessel (State, Federal, or foreign) and evidence which establishes chain of title from that registration to the present owner along with evidence of the facts of build in accordance with subpart F of this part.

(c) Complete chain of title, without evidence of citizenship for each entity in that chain of title. The owner must provide evidence which establishes:

(1) The facts of build in accordance with subpart F of this part; and

(2) A complete chain of title for the vessel from the person for whom the vessel was built to the present owner.

(d) Complete chain of title, with evidence of citizenship for each entity in that chain of title. The owner must provide evidence which establishes:

(1) The facts of build in accordance with subpart F of this part; and

(2) A complete chain of title for the vessel from the person for whom the vessel was built to the present owner, accompanied by competent and persuasive evidence establishing the citizenship of each entity in the chain of title.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...#se46.2.67_153

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

One slight correction...

The USCG does not issue a title of ownership. The USCG documents the vessel as a US flagged vessel.

On the USCG vessels documentation certificate there is a note on the back that reads "The certificate on the face of this document is not conclusive evidence of title in any proceeding where ownership is in issue. Complete records are on file at the NVDC...

Yes, the CoD is not a title, but the documentation process includes titling. The title is not issued on paper, you request an Abstract of Title from the USCG and it is valid on the day it is issued. This differs from paper titles as frequently used for cars, there is no easy way to determine if a paper title is current, and this is the reason for the note on the CoD - to get absolutely current data you have to order an abstract when you need it.

[goboatingnow]

The OP is faced with a binary choice

Perhaps in the light of what he has , he could tick “ titled under the laws of the U.K.” ( its not strictly true, but it’s the closest thing he has )

He could then use the closed transcript ( assuming part 1 registration ) and the bill of sale to establish chain of title

Note that Cardiff ( register of shipping and seamen ) will send you an official “ closed transcript “ if you present them with proof of sale , otherwise it will be sent to the registered owner. If she was SSR registered I can’t remember , but that’s not title proof anyway and is generally not accepted as a valid chain of title document

This is why in my case I insisted to the broker an unbroken chain of original only title documents right back to the builder must accompany the sale

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Yes, the CoD is not a title, but the documentation process includes titling. The title is not issued on paper, you request an Abstract of Title from the USCG and it is valid on the day it is issued. This differs from paper titles as frequently used for cars, there is no easy way to determine if a paper title is current, and this is the reason for the note on the CoD - to get absolutely current data you have to order an abstract when you need it.

OK...maybe we're getting into the weeds, quibbling over semantics, and way off-topic...but the abstract of title from the documentation center only has historical data that is submitted to the UCSG.

As I wrote in my post (that you conveniently omitted to inlclude in your retort), was the NVDC may NOT have all the information. There could be periods of time missing from the "abstract" of available information.

The NVDC issues no abstract of title for vessels that have not been previously documented. They simply have no record of those vessels.

The abstract may also be incomplete. For example, if I purchase a documented vessel and chose not to document it and instead register it in the state the NVDC may record that sale (assuming the seller completes and surrenders the form). Then if I choose to sell the boat to Person A who takes out a loan to buy the boat that sale and lien information is not provided to the NVDC, and thus they are not aware of that transfer or the lien. If Person A then sells the boat to Person B and still owes the bank money an abstract of title from the USCG will not show that lien information, but the state registration and or title will. If Person B then sells to Person C, and Person C wants to document the vessel the abstract may have no info on the sale/ownership of Person A.

Not all abstracts show a complete chain of ownership however, as vessels can enter or re-enter documentation from subsequent owners.

A person may also request a certificate of ownership (which is different than the CoD) if the vessel is documented with the USCG for $195, but is not required to be carried onboard the vessel.

To further complicate matters...only some US states require a vessel to be titled (as legal proof of ownership) for boats. In most states a "bill of sale" will suffice. Vessel registration adds an additional level of complexity as does USCG documentation.

For example, in Washington a vessel must have a title and registration. In Alaska documented boat are exempt from titling but are required to be registered with the state. (You might also note that in Alaska, the CoD is not a valid form of proof of ownership for titling, but is valid for registration.) In Hawaii, documented boats do not require a title, nor are they required to be registered with the state.

It's all a complex mess....mostly involving taxes, fees, and bureaucracy.

IMHO...we laymen don't always fully understand all the ins and outs of these ridiculous regulations across states and federal boundaries, and thus it is best left to a professional service as I alluded to in my first post.

[goboatingnow]

None of this is helping the OP fill out the form ....

[sepharad]

The boat was registered in the UK and "vessel's registration lapsed in September of last year." This was 2 years ago. The seller told me he de-registered the boat. This may be the same thing.


The boat in near Aarhus Denmark and has been since 1992.


I live in Portugal, where I am a dual US/Portuguese citizen.

[Dsanduril]

The key is this, you have to be able to prove to the satisfaction of the USCG that you own the boat, and that there are no liens/mortgages on the boat. The way the USCG expects this is a paper trail from the time the boat left the factory to the present time.

If the boat was UK SSR Part I then this may actually help you, as Part I records ownership information in a manner similar to the USCG (and you would need to get a copy from the UK). If it was Part III then you will need to come up with bills of sale or other proof back to the original sale to show chain of title.

IME the USCG can be somewhat lenient in this regard for small recreational boats, but that is not something to count on.

[sepharad]

Thank you all. I have Numerous UK documents indicating original owner, letter of estate administration, sale agreement, Bill of sale, inventory, Factory order form, invoice for construction, EU VAT paid form, Customs and excise letter of tax compliance. Hopefully they wont give me too much trouble over foreign documents as opposed to USGC documents.


Now that I have all my Data in the Application for simplified measurement form, I need to get the darn thing to do the calculation.

[Pandor]

Is the OP a US citizen? If not, the vessel is ineligible for USCG documentation. From his posting, I have my doubts.

[sepharad]

"I live in Portugal, where I am a dual US/Portuguese citizen."

[wholybee]

I'm surprised no one has suggested this. Why not call or email the NVDC?

While they are very slow at processing paperwork and issuing documents, I found them to be very easy to get ahold of and they were very helpful answering my questions.

[sepharad]

I have sent them an e-mail inquiry about the calculation function on their Application for simplified measurement form, not functioning. We will see if they get back to me. Calling is not very practical for me.

[goboatingnow]

Was it U.K. part 2 or SSR register. If part 1 then request a “ closed transcript “. Note SSR is no a title document