VAT, EU Visas, and 90 days in 180 for us poor brits!

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by iabmatos

Hello all,

Hijacking (or adding to the) the original question:

How about an EU-flagged boat (say Poland, with an open registry)?


Thanks,

Ismael

Ismael:

Not hijacking, but maybe pirating or shipjacking.

The rules are very clear, a boat belonging to a EU citizen / resident, or flying the flag of a EU country, or used by an EU citizen / resident must be EU VAT paid if it enters or resides in EU territory. This means that both in home waters and when sailing between any EU countries, such boats should carry evidence of VAT payment.

Geez, it is just a tax, pay it and be done with it. VAT is merely a payment for the privilege to purchase or use to circulate within the EU. One of many privilege-based taxations. The USA has similar forms of privilege taxations, called Sales and Use Taxation.

[iabmatos]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Ismael:

Geez, it is just a tax, pay it and be done with it.

NO. It is not "just" a tax. Not when you make money in BRL to convert and spend in EUR. Currency rate is roughly 7 BRL to 1 EUR. Just to add perspective, the monthly minimum wage here in Brazil is about EUR 150.

Besides, I feel better spending all the extra boat bucks in upgrades, maintenance, services, fuel, food and alcohol. All that is going to stay in EU anyway.

Cheers

[Montanan]

Someone earning the minimum wage in Brazil is unlikely to own and operate a yacht in the EU.

1 Brazilian Real = 0.17 Euro.

Ditto for anyone earning the minimum wage in the USA [poor Yanks], or the UK [poor Brits].

Just saying.

EU VAT also stays in the EU.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Someone earning the minimum wage in Brazil is unlikely to own and operate a yacht in the EU.

1 Brazilian Real = 0.17 Euro.

Ditto for anyone earning the minimum wage in the USA [poor Yanks], or the UK [poor Brits].

Just saying.

EU VAT also stays in the EU.

Little do you know.. its amazing what can be achieved if you give up drinking in pubs and clubs and learn how to cook..
It soon adds up.

[Haddock1]

Just caught this Interesting debate and see no clear answer.

James P I was in your position last year (June 21) and studied this area in some detail. I am a UK citizen and purchased a new boat on the south coast ex VAT but UK registered. The broker then exported it to the channel Islands on my behalf (with me onboard) where I was issued by the BAILIWICK OF GUERNSEY with a GC27. All I was required to do was anchor in Havelet Bay just outside St Peter Port and everything was done online and did not leave the boat. The clearing agent just visually checked I was there. I then planned to sail to Valencia (Spanish port of entry) to clear in to Spain at which point my 90 day clock would have started along with the TA status (18 months) of my vessel. Our journey was interrupted by a bunch of hungry orca's in the bay of Cadiz and we diverted to La Linea (Gibraltar) for an emergency haul out. Whilst there I went to the Spanish Customs and got my passport stamped effectively starting the clock on both myself and the vessel at that point.

After repairs we continued our journey to San Carles Marina south of Barcelona and then went home (UK just me not the boat) .

I then looked at how I could stay longer and also what the requirements were for resetting the clock on my boat. I looked at the NLV and the Golden Visa and what ports (outside the EU) I could visit to reset the TA status on my vessel.

I concluded that, as from the posts, there is no simple answer.

So.... in June of this year (22) I have decided to sail from San Carles to a marina in Cyprus (Turkish side non EU) where I have secured and paid for a berth (in advance). The journey will involve stopping in Sicily and Greece and then on to Turkey before I arrive in Cyprus around mid October. My drop dead date for me to be out of Dodge (the EU) is the 23 August. I intend to have crew all of which are UK citizens.

The conclusion is this does not break any rules and enables me to keep my vessel ex VAT. Cyprus (Turkish territory) allows 3 months entry but easily extended to a year without tax implications.

I think trying to "play" the system (NLV, Golden Visas etc etc) is potentially dangerous whilst we are in a state of flux. I hope that the EU and the UK can agree on a 6 month EU visa for us Brits which is what we afford to EU citizens arriving in the UK. This would meet my needs perfectly. Time will tell.

[iabmatos]

Hi Haddock,

Originally Posted by Haddock1

... The broker then exported it to the channel Islands on my behalf (with me onboard) where I was issued by the BAILIWICK OF GUERNSEY with a GC27. ...

Sounds easy. Could you please let us know how much did cost the registration? The physical presence of the boat is actually required for the registration?

Thanks,

Ismael

[Haddock1]

Originally Posted by iabmatos

Hi Haddock,



Sounds easy. Could you please let us know how much did cost the registration? The physical presence of the boat is actually required for the registration?

Thanks,

Ismael

Hi Ismale

The cost of the registration was £250 and managed by Oceanskies Limited in Guernsey. The boat had to be visually confirmed it was in Guernsey territorial waters. Also the boat was not mine and still owned by the broker until this had happened.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

Just caught this Interesting debate and see no clear answer.

James P I was in your position last year (June 21) and studied this area in some detail. I am a UK citizen and purchased a new boat on the south coast ex VAT but UK registered. The broker then exported it to the channel Islands on my behalf (with me onboard) where I was issued by the BAILIWICK OF GUERNSEY with a GC27. All I was required to do was anchor in Havelet Bay just outside St Peter Port and everything was done online and did not leave the boat. The clearing agent just visually checked I was there. I then planned to sail to Valencia (Spanish port of entry) to clear in to Spain at which point my 90 day clock would have started along with the TA status (18 months) of my vessel. Our journey was interrupted by a bunch of hungry orca's in the bay of Cadiz and we diverted to La Linea (Gibraltar) for an emergency haul out. Whilst there I went to the Spanish Customs and got my passport stamped effectively starting the clock on both myself and the vessel at that point.

After repairs we continued our journey to San Carles Marina south of Barcelona and then went home (UK just me not the boat) .

I then looked at how I could stay longer and also what the requirements were for resetting the clock on my boat. I looked at the NLV and the Golden Visa and what ports (outside the EU) I could visit to reset the TA status on my vessel.

I concluded that, as from the posts, there is no simple answer.

So.... in June of this year (22) I have decided to sail from San Carles to a marina in Cyprus (Turkish side non EU) where I have secured and paid for a berth (in advance). The journey will involve stopping in Sicily and Greece and then on to Turkey before I arrive in Cyprus around mid October. My drop dead date for me to be out of Dodge (the EU) is the 23 August. I intend to have crew all of which are UK citizens.

The conclusion is this does not break any rules and enables me to keep my vessel ex VAT. Cyprus (Turkish territory) allows 3 months entry but easily extended to a year without tax implications.

I think trying to "play" the system (NLV, Golden Visas etc etc) is potentially dangerous whilst we are in a state of flux. I hope that the EU and the UK can agree on a 6 month EU visa for us Brits which is what we afford to EU citizens arriving in the UK. This would meet my needs perfectly. Time will tell.

Very unique situation in Cyprus.


European Union and Northern Cyprus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe...European_Union

Turkish Cypriots and the European Union have somewhat strained relations because the European Union (EU) does not recognise the self-declared Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

Legal situation
Due to the Cyprus dispute, TRNC is recognized only by the EU candidate state Turkey. All other countries recognise the Republic of Cyprus, an EU member state, as the only legitimate government for the whole island. However the Republic of Cyprus de facto controls only the south of the island while the TRNC government controls the north.[1]

Due to this dispute, northern Cyprus is de jure part of the EU by virtue of de jure being part of the Republic of Cyprus. It was hoped that the accession of the south in 2004 would provide the catalyst for unification so that a unitary state of Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots could join the EU on 1 May 2004. In the end, Turkish Cypriots supported reunification, also because it would allow them to join the EU.[2] However, the unification plan was voted down by the Greek Cypriots and Cyprus joined the EU in the face of the Republic of Cyprus.[1]

Cyprus' Treaty of Accession 2003 included Protocol No 10 on Cyprus (OJ L 236, 23.09.2003, p. 955), Art. 1.1 of which states: "The application of the acquis shall be suspended in those areas of the Republic of Cyprus in which the Government of the Republic of Cyprus does not exercise effective control."

Status in the EU
As of 2018, the EU recognises the north as being outside the control of the Greek Cypriot–led government of the Republic and hence is temporarily exempt from EU legislation. The euro also does not officially circulate in the north (although it does have widespread usage[3]) and the Schengen agreement is not in effect in Cyprus due to complications in security at the external border to the north. The free movement of goods, capital, services and people is also not in effect.[1] Turkish Cypriots are considered citizens of the European Union as the EU considers them Cypriot citizens, merely living in a part of Cyprus outside of the control of the Republic of Cyprus.[4]

However, seats in the European Parliament are allocated based on the population of both north and south Cyprus together. Turkish Cypriots that hold citizenship of the Republic of Cyprus are allowed to vote and be candidates.[5]

Naturalised citizens of TRNC or foreigners carrying a passport stamped by TRNC authorities may be refused entry by the Republic of Cyprus or Greece,[6] although after the accession of the Republic of Cyprus to the EU such restrictions have been eased following confidence-building measures between Athens and Ankara and the partial opening of the UN-controlled line by TRNC authorities. The Republic of Cyprus also allows passage across the Green Line from the part of Nicosia that it controls, as well as a few other selected crossing points, since TRNC does not leave entry stamps in the passport for such visits. Since May 2004 some tourists have taken to flying to the Republic of Cyprus directly then crossing the green line to holiday in northern Cyprus.[7]

Euro
Northern Cyprus is legally part of the EU, but law is suspended due to north being under the control of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which the EU does not recognise. The North uses the Turkish lira instead of the euro, although the euro circulates alongside the lira and other currencies. On the resolution of the Cyprus dispute and the reunification of the island, the euro would become the official currency of the north also. Adoption by the North would be the first time the euro has replaced use of another currency that hasn't ceased to exist after euro adoption. Euro adoption would help to address inflation in the North by bringing in price stability.[3] Cypriot euro coins already bear the name of Cyprus in both Greek and Turkish, displaying representations of natural and ancient Cypriot history.[8]

Trade
In wake of the April 2004 referendum on unification, and the support of the Turkish Cypriot community for the plan, the European Union made pledges towards ending the isolation of northern Cyprus. The proposal for trade[9] between the EU and the Turkish Cypriots was never implemented due to opposition from the Greek Cypriots, who argue that trade would amount to indirect recognition of the TRNC. Proposals to open up trade were discussed by Parliament again in 2010, but still opposed by the Republic of Cyprus.[10]

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Ismael:

Not hijacking, but maybe pirating or shipjacking.

The rules are very clear, a boat belonging to a EU citizen / resident, or flying the flag of a EU country, or used by an EU citizen / resident must be EU VAT paid if it enters or resides in EU territory. This means that both in home waters and when sailing between any EU countries, such boats should carry evidence of VAT payment.

Geez, it is just a tax, pay it and be done with it. VAT is merely a payment for the privilege to purchase or use to circulate within the EU. One of many privilege-based taxations. The USA has similar forms of privilege taxations, called Sales and Use Taxation.

The flag of the boat is completely irrelevant

The only issue is the vat status of the goods and the position of the beneficial owner.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

Just caught this Interesting debate and see no clear answer.

James P I was in your position last year (June 21) and studied this area in some detail. I am a UK citizen and purchased a new boat on the south coast ex VAT but UK registered. The broker then exported it to the channel Islands on my behalf (with me onboard) where I was issued by the BAILIWICK OF GUERNSEY with a GC27. All I was required to do was anchor in Havelet Bay just outside St Peter Port and everything was done online and did not leave the boat. The clearing agent just visually checked I was there. I then planned to sail to Valencia (Spanish port of entry) to clear in to Spain at which point my 90 day clock would have started along with the TA status (18 months) of my vessel. Our journey was interrupted by a bunch of hungry orca's in the bay of Cadiz and we diverted to La Linea (Gibraltar) for an emergency haul out. Whilst there I went to the Spanish Customs and got my passport stamped effectively starting the clock on both myself and the vessel at that point.

After repairs we continued our journey to San Carles Marina south of Barcelona and then went home (UK just me not the boat) .

I then looked at how I could stay longer and also what the requirements were for resetting the clock on my boat. I looked at the NLV and the Golden Visa and what ports (outside the EU) I could visit to reset the TA status on my vessel.

I concluded that, as from the posts, there is no simple answer.

So.... in June of this year (22) I have decided to sail from San Carles to a marina in Cyprus (Turkish side non EU) where I have secured and paid for a berth (in advance). The journey will involve stopping in Sicily and Greece and then on to Turkey before I arrive in Cyprus around mid October. My drop dead date for me to be out of Dodge (the EU) is the 23 August. I intend to have crew all of which are UK citizens.

The conclusion is this does not break any rules and enables me to keep my vessel ex VAT. Cyprus (Turkish territory) allows 3 months entry but easily extended to a year without tax implications.

I think trying to "play" the system (NLV, Golden Visas etc etc) is potentially dangerous whilst we are in a state of flux. I hope that the EU and the UK can agree on a 6 month EU visa for us Brits which is what we afford to EU citizens arriving in the UK. This would meet my needs perfectly. Time will tell.

There is no plan to change Schengen protocols to allow a 6 month tourist visa. The U.K. 6 months ( also Ireland allows 6 months) is a country specific rule , in theory individual EU countries can offer longer tourist visas but not on an EU basis. This happens for Oz and NZ tourists in selected EU countries.

Once outside the “ club “ your benefits are the same as other major outside the club. The EU couldn’t realistically change its rules just to suit one external country

So it’s 90 out of 180 for you and a very generous 18 months for a non eu vat boat.

ETIAS the new EU travel authorisation scheme will also tighten up things compatible to the US so that overstay tracking will be computerised, this will unfortunately remove some leniency that’s in the system currently.

There are some protests being made to Brussels from U.K. marine interests that the 18 month rule was never designed for countries like the U.K. ,as it’s facilitating buying boats in the eu and then keeping them there vat free. This means U.K. dealers which traditionally supplied many brits with med boats have a problem. ( though several are also established in the med too )

The EU is making changes to the Temporary Import Process , there is also talk of an EU wide leisure boat registry etc.

We shall see

PS. The number of people here in Greece “ gaming “ the residency rules while not paying boat VAT is quite amazing .

[iabmatos]

Very unique situation in Cyprus. INDEED.

I've copied this piece from the internet - Sorry, but I've forgotten to keep a reference to the source. Keep in mind...

"Beware of the geopolitics of that region: CAUTION - Re. Tension between Greek and Turkey - flag state and visits across those 2 borders

The captain of a product tanker was arrested at the port of Larnaca, Cyprus and sentenced to one month in jail for "unauthorized entries" to a port on the northern half of the island.

Cypriot law enforcement officers arrested the master of the Maltese-flagged tanker Red Garnet, a Romanian national, after finding that he had captained a vessel that called at the port of Bogazi in late 2020. Bogazi is located near Famagusta in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, a breakaway state which has existed since 1983. Turkey is the only nation that recognizes Northern Cyprus, and its legitimacy is disputed by the Republic of Cyprus government in Nicosia.

For border-control purposes, the Cypriot government treats ports located in the northern area as though they are Cypriot, and it considers some to be "closed," including Famagusta, Karavostasi and Kyrenia. Vessels that call at these seaports are in violation of the Cypriot closure order, and the master may face criminal charges for "unauthorized entry to the Republic of Cyprus" if the vessel later calls in a Cypriot port.

Greece, which maintains close ties with the Republic of Cyprus, maintains similar restrictions on port calls in Northern Cyprus.

According to Cypriot officials, the captain of the Red Garnet called in Bogazi twice - once in October and once in December last year. He was arrested on his arrival in Larnaca aboard the Red Garnet, and with fast-track prosecution procedures the trial and sentencing were completed within two days, according to news agency CNA. He will spend a month in prison - a considerably harsher sentence than the $2000 fine handed down for the last publicized offense, which occurred in 2019."

Cheers
Ismael

[st599]

Originally Posted by sailormed

The 90 days in 180 is a Schengen regulation. Many countries in Europe are part of the Schengen treaty. But, but, but every country that is part of the Schengen area is still an independant country that issues visas to foreign nationals that visit that country.
If you want to stay for more then 90 days in a country that is part of Schengen you can apply at the consulat of that country for a stay for longer then 90 days. That stay will then be grated (or not) by that country.
I have the impression that there is a lot of confusion over these rules.

You can, but only France and Sweden currently have Visas for Tourists. All the rest require significant investment, work permits etc.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by st599

You can, but only France and Sweden currently have Visas for Tourists. All the rest require significant investment, work permits etc.

It depends. Maybe. I have read, or read of, visas or visa extensions for US passport holders that allow stays up to six months in some European countries. They were France, Netherlands and Denmark. Having said that, I went back to read the regulations on the Dutch visa and could not find the information though I would have sworn I had read it before. Maybe I had and the regulations changed, I just could not find the regulations, or I misremembered the country.

I know Aussies have a number of visas to get into the US. I think they are work visas but not all of the visas are being used. There is a bill in the US Congress to take some of the unused visas for Australians and give to the Irish. If this bill passes into law, a senator has a hold on the bill at the moment, Ireland will reduce the financial requirements for US citizens who wish to get a retirement visa to Ireland. The current requirements are 50,00 Euros of verified income which would be reduced to 25,000 Euros. Which is what I believe is what the requirements were in the past.

It is complicated. It can change.

Later,
Dan

[st599]

Originally Posted by dannc

It depends. Maybe. I have read, or read of, visas or visa extensions for US passport holders that allow stays up to six months in some European countries. They were France, Netherlands and Denmark. Having said that, I went back to read the regulations on the Dutch visa and could not find the information though I would have sworn I had read it before. Maybe I had and the regulations changed, I just could not find the regulations, or I misremembered the country.

I know Aussies have a number of visas to get into the US. I think they are work visas but not all of the visas are being used. There is a bill in the US Congress to take some of the unused visas for Australians and give to the Irish. If this bill passes into law, a senator has a hold on the bill at the moment, Ireland will reduce the financial requirements for US citizens who wish to get a retirement visa to Ireland. The current requirements are 50,00 Euros of verified income which would be reduced to 25,000 Euros. Which is what I believe is what the requirements were in the past.

It is complicated. It can change.

Later,
Dan

Indeed, but the question was for Brits. There are 2 countries offering tourist visas. Some others have retirement style visas if you can self-support, some have visas for work (e.g. Croatia's Digital Nomad visa). Many have tax implications, all are only for a single country.



There is no Schengen wide visa extension (although according to the RYA Brexit forum held last year, one was offered if the UK would reciprocate but the UK refused).

[dannc]

Originally Posted by st599

Indeed, but the question was for Brits. ...

Yes, the discussion started out about Brits but then moved on as almost always happens. Your post did not mention Brits so it was open to interpretation as to nationality, thus my post.

Some people might be interested in knowing there are other ways to get longer termed Visas. American's, as do others, sometimes have agreements to get more time in a country.

Later,
Dan