What could possibly go wrong?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

An interesting aspect of this is that laws are almost always behind the curve with regards to new technologies. It will be interesting to see how AI controlled boats, cars, etc. are handled under the law as incidents happen. I am not saying automated vessels and vehicles are good or bad, just that legally there will be some shaking out and it will be interesting to see how it progresses.

Ultimately I don't think it will matter who, or what, is in control. The concept of deepest pockets will always apply, as will the concept of interpretation of the laws. Legislatures the world over will eventually come to grips with this, as will the COLREGS and insurance companies.

This is the biggest thing slowing things down. There have been various automated driving systems for several decades. Yes, the newest versions are better and able to handle more situations but there have been significant benefits missed as a result.

But...
When an idiot causes a crash, they shrug and move on.
When an automated car causes a crash, the lawyers start drooling over the multibillion dollar company they can liquidate in a class action lawsuit. As a result, major companies are hesitant to be the first to market.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

There ya go... a future-proof job: AI Repairman.

That's the first step but as they get better, expect the AI Repairman to literally be an AI Repairman. On a ship there may be no captain just a repair crew directed from a shore based crew. That repair crew may become smaller as they replace crew for simpler tasks with AI. It will take time and it will be gradual but it will come.

A lot of people (even IT professionals) see AI and think of a robot like Data on Star Trek. That's kind of the holy grail of AI.

What a lot of people miss is there is a spectrum of AI. If you think of it in terms of organic lifeforms:
- Single cell organisms have intelligence but it's very basic and fairly easy to mimic.
- Insects are far more complex but still pretty predictable if you understand the inputs that cause them to react.
- Then you move up to vertebrates. A lower order vertebrate like a lizard will have more complex behavior and learning ability compared to an insect.
- As you move up, say to a dog, you have ever more complex behavior and greater ability to learn and adapt.
- In many ways, it's hard to differentiate from humans from some of the higher intelligence mammals and birds. Probably the biggest difference is not they are less intelligent but they have different priorities.

Depending on the system and goals, we are probably somewhere on the level of insect-lizard but it's advancing fast.

[BenBowSirocco]

One thing I might add about the idea of our culture experiencing a “split” of priorities in terms of technology- especially a monetarily driven divide, which we can hopefully all agree is already pretty deep/big.. and growing instead of shrinking.
With the number of humans currently on the planet it’s not possible to go backwards very far. Industrial farming and cities housing 60+% of our population is what makes a population of this size possible.
Going back to each family or micro-co-ops growing their own food and making necessary tools and housing is really not a viable option without a dramatic reduction in population.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

A couple of years ago, there was an incredible documentary, California Typewriter https://californiatypewritermovie.com/ which examines a defunct piece of "technology": the typewriter. While the documentary turns on an examination of the typewriter, it is actually a profound commentary on the state of our society.

About an hour in, Jeremy Mayer, a sculptor who creates pieces out of discarded typewriter parts, says something to the effect of... "we will be seeing a schism in our society in the future... the people with the money and the power will pursue enhanced technology... others will turn away from this and seek to live in a more authentic way, connecting with other people and in community".

Thanks for that, watched it tonight and it’s excellent It available for streaming on Amazon and incl. with Prime membership.

I find myself somewhere strangely in the middle. Even though I’m partly responsible for this digital revolution (built a bit of the Internet), I prefer the people and community over technology… but for some things I actually prefer technology and use the best that can be had for that task (think autopilot etc.)

I have some observations though: first, the typewriter itself is a technology advancement from handwriting as much as the word processor is over the typewriter, if not more.

Second one back to AI driving cars: why do people expect perfection from AI? When driving, even with their unequalled reaction time, they are still bound by laws of nature which restricts abilities. Someone jumping from behind a parked car is still gonna be hit.
For me the question is if the AI caused the accident rather than was involved in the accident.

BTW, Bob Munden could react at that millisecond speed as well… only slow motion replay could reveal his draw was not a trick. Earned him a permanent world record (search for him on YouTube if interested)

[carstenb]

Here's an idea

build an AI sailboat - equip it with a few dozen GoPro camera and let it sail around the world. Then we can all stay at home remaining warm and comfy (while lying on the sofa) watching the screen (standing watch). An easy peasy circumnavigation

Voyeurisme gone mad.

[AndyEss]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

This response depresses me beyond belief.

Your contention is that humans' intellectual and physical capacities ought to be engaged in selling or advertising things? And that is better than war?

My point was far more broad.
LittleWing77

I’m sorry that selling goods and services is not a far more humane endeavour for human beings than waging war on each other.
Some of our life experiences are different. My mother was a slave laborer in nazi Germany. As a kid, I listened to first person stories about the Russian Revolution and Civil War.
The decision to drink a Coke or facing cannibalism to achieve soviet Stalinist industrial goals is rather obvious to me (yeah, Holodomor stories figure in my early life too.
Commerce or war? Why is this even a question?

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by AndyEss

Commerce or war? Why is this even a question?

I will reiterate: that was NOT the question. You were the person who instituted the twist - and continue to persist with it.

My point was far more broad.

Take your blinders off,
LW77

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Thanks for that, watched it tonight and it’s excellent It available for streaming on Amazon and incl. with Prime membership.

I find myself somewhere strangely in the middle. Even though I’m partly responsible for this digital revolution (built a bit of the Internet), I prefer the people and community over technology… but for some things I actually prefer technology and use the best that can be had for that task (think autopilot etc.)

I have some observations though: first, the typewriter itself is a technology advancement from handwriting as much as the word processor is over the typewriter, if not more.

Second one back to AI driving cars: why do people expect perfection from AI? When driving, even with their unequalled reaction time, they are still bound by laws of nature which restricts abilities. Someone jumping from behind a parked car is still gonna be hit.
For me the question is if the AI caused the accident rather than was involved in the accident.

BTW, Bob Munden could react at that millisecond speed as well… only slow motion replay could reveal his draw was not a trick. Earned him a permanent world record (search for him on YouTube if interested)

I'm glad you weighed in, Jedi.

I was curious what you think - exactly because you (and S/V Jedi) do seem to straddle that paradox...

Fair winds,
LittleWing77

(Oh, and glad you liked California Typewriter. I'm sort of fascinated by the societal commentary it makes. Also Martin Howard, the typewriter historian, is a neighbour here in the Beaches - still looking for that Scholes-Glidden...! )

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by BenBowSirocco

Going back to each family or micro-co-ops growing their own food and making necessary tools and housing is really not a viable option without a dramatic reduction in population.

Exactly. My response to those enamored with non-GMO, free-range, sustainably-harvested, cage-free, gluten-free, locally-sourced artisan foods is to ask if they'd volunteer to be among the millions who need to die so we can all eat that way.

Don't get me wrong, those are all good things. Just not practical when you have this many mouths to feed - unless you're fortunate enough to enjoy a relatively wealthy economic status.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

A lot of people (even IT professionals) see AI and think of a robot like Data on Star Trek. That's kind of the holy grail of AI.

What a lot of people miss is there is a spectrum of AI.

I like the analogy. One can even take it one step further. Maybe the future of AI isn't an android like Data. Maybe it's an entire ecosystem. We have specialized robots already which weld automobile frames, vacuum floors, and robo-call us selling extended warranties.

Maybe the future isn't a do-everything AI, but lots of different "species" of AI, each occupying it's own little niche, and interacting with all the other AI species in a complex "web of artificial life."

I wonder where we'd fit in?

[s/v Jedi]

One more observation: there’s talk of robots and AI and then there are remarks like “a hall of workers is now a hall of robots”. It seems there is a misunderstanding of what AI is. The industrial robots are just computerized tools, there is no AI for the vast majority of it. It’s like the lathe that can cut a thread, not a machine that is intelligent.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Yes, I see yours' and Belize's perspectives clearly, Sherriff. Guess what I'm also saying is that if we're paying attention, we have the power to choose.

A couple of years ago, there was an incredible documentary, California Typewriter https://californiatypewritermovie.com/ which examines a defunct piece of "technology": the typewriter. While the documentary turns on an examination of the typewriter, it is actually a profound commentary on the state of our society.

About an hour in, Jeremy Mayer, a sculptor who creates pieces out of discarded typewriter parts, says something to the effect of... "we will be seeing a schism in our society in the future... the people with the money and the power will pursue enhanced technology... others will turn away from this and seek to live in a more authentic way, connecting with other people and in community".

I think Jeremy is right. We're seeing the edge of this right here on Cruisers Forum. Not the Members who have lots of money, fancy boats with every enhancement imaginable, but those members who are brass-tacks sort of people. Simple boats, little technology onboard other than compass, depth-sounder anchor and solar panels.

Anyway, that's what I'm seeing. People are feeling alienated and dismissed by the effects of increased technology and corporate devaluation and are turning to sailing to become more free and to connect with other like-minded souls.

This year's Oscar-winner, Nomadland https://m.imdb.com/title/tt9770150/, also addressed an aspect of this, only its perspective was around land-dwellers.

Fair winds,
LittleWing77 [emoji3]

This schism between socioeconomic classes has existed almost from the start of human history. Certainly from the start of advanced civilizations. So, for thousands of years, maybe much longer (based on recent discoveries), those with wealth/power have always lived better and those without...not so well. (especially indigenous who really got screwed)

Since WWII, technology has advanced at an incredible pace, far more than in all of past known human history. This has deepened and quickened this existing schism. I think it will continue to do so.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

I like the analogy. One can even take it one step further. Maybe the future of AI isn't an android like Data. Maybe it's an entire ecosystem. We have specialized robots already which weld automobile frames, vacuum floors, and robo-call us selling extended warranties.

Maybe the future isn't a do-everything AI, but lots of different "species" of AI, each occupying it's own little niche, and interacting with all the other AI species in a complex "web of artificial life."

I wonder where we'd fit in?

That's why I referred to Data as the "Holy Grail"...it's something that is likely unachievable just as finding the Grail is unachievable.

Yes, everything points to AI being implemented based on more specific functions.
- The ads you see on websites are no driven heavily by AI
- AI is taking over certain driving functions.
- Alexa/Siri are AI interfaces. (Basically any voice command systems use AI)
- Predictive type is a form of AI.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

One more observation: there’s talk of robots and AI and then there are remarks like “a hall of workers is now a hall of robots”. It seems there is a misunderstanding of what AI is. The industrial robots are just computerized tools, there is no AI for the vast majority of it. It’s like the lathe that can cut a thread, not a machine that is intelligent.

Yes, this is why in an earlier post I used the phrase "automation/AI". Most industrial automation is not AI and to-date this industrial automation has displaced far more humans than AI.

A machine built to perform a very specific task, like weld automobile panels, does not need to be AI. A machine intended to perform more general tasks, like a robotic assistant, does need to be AI.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

That's why I referred to Data as the "Holy Grail"...it's something that is likely unachievable just as finding the Grail is unachievable.

Yes, everything points to AI being implemented based on more specific functions.
- The ads you see on websites are no driven heavily by AI
- AI is taking over certain driving functions.
- Alexa/Siri are AI interfaces. (Basically any voice command systems use AI)
- Predictive type is a form of AI.

I mentioned an “R2” before but it got lost in the data Instead of looking at Data, look at a simple R2 like R2D2 which is a droid to fix problems aboard the craft like X-Wing fighters but also utilized for countless other functions. It’s something close to what we’re able to achieve.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

This schism between socioeconomic classes has existed almost from the start of human history. Certainly from the start of advanced civilizations. So, for thousands of years, maybe much longer (based on recent discoveries), those with wealth/power have always lived better and those without...not so well. (especially indigenous who really got screwed)

Since WWII, technology has advanced at an incredible pace, far more than in all of past known human history. This has deepened and quickened this existing schism. I think it will continue to do so.

But there are more differences now than what we had in the past: where this hi tech upper class used to be easily able to suppress the “primitives”, this is not the case anymore: the primitives not only got the same guns but they are better at handling them than this upper class… which undoubtedly is scheming to send in killer robots etc. The movies show it all.

Also, there are many in this upper class who choose to switch over to the other side. This too has happened in the past (like the Rockefeller son becoming a tribe member in Papua New Guinea iirc) but is much more prevalent today.