Which rule takes precedence

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by markpierce

I cruise at six knots.

Than obviously you are the font of knowledge!

[Snowpetrel]

Rule 13,18,14,15 is a pretty good starting point as far as the order to apply the rules. Under this even a NUC should give way to a power vessel if it is overtaking, but rule 2 comes into it at some stage.

[BigBoater917]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

I will be interested to see how this plays out.

My guess.......

I would expect the boat being overtaken is stand on and the boat overtaking is the give way, and in the event of a collision the boat doing the overtaking would be found more at fault because they are doing and because they have a better view of the event.

Irrespective of if they are a sailing vessel or not.

This is the only correct answer.

[CaptTom]

I have to back up Mark here. My experience is that, while many (especially smaller) power boats are piloted by totally clueless operators, a somewhat larger number of sailors firmly believe they have "right of way" in all situations.

Not sure what's worse, the boater who doesn't even know there ARE rules, or the one who firmly believes in a rule that doesn't exist.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Hmm...IMO it seems the faster the boat, the lower the knowledge.

The faster the boat the quicker it can get into problems and the less time to react to avoid such and the more impact it can yield.

Knowledge or rather the lack thereof can be a contributing factor, but as the saying goes Speed Kills. Slow collisions do little to no harm. By way of example, a commercial ship traveling at 20 knots closes in on slower sailboats faster than many sailors realize, and all too often I see sailors not giving lots of clearance room by changing course radically while still far away, or even standing on and passing in front of the ships with little to no room for a Plan B. The commercial ship captains generally having much greater knowledge than the typical sailboat skipper and a lot more speed, tonnage and draft.

Watching the America's Cup catamarans out race the speed boats trying to film them indicates its not about the motive source but rather all about the speed. Speed being all relative.

Sailboats surfing at high speed down trailing waves often get themselves into trouble when they should be deploying speed reducing drogues.

First unwritten rule of Colregs: Just stay out of each others way. Stay well away.

[jmschmidt]

Well you are mistaken. The overtaking vessel is always the give-way vessel. The hierarchy is a myth. There are several categories of vessels, situations and conditions that relegate sailing vessels to give-way status. And if you don't know what they are then stay away and give way....way away, please

[Howler]

The mnemonic we used in captain's license class for the right-of-way pecking order was, "Over Night Rooms For Sale Plus Supper".

1. Overtaken vessel
2. Not under command
3. Restricted ability to maneuver
4. Commercial fishing vessels
5. Sailing vessels
6. Power driven vessels
7. Seaplane

Good reminder to us sailors that we're third from the BOTTOM of the list!

And yes, a sailboat overtaking a power boat gives way to the power boat.

And for those of you who want to give way from abaft to abeam, then when you're abeam and technically no longer overtaking, turn sharply to force the power boat to maneuver, you can't. "Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear." Dang, you can't have any fun out there !

[guyrj33]

Recently we were sailing back to our home port staying between the shore and the main channel. We were passed by a large power boat about 200 ft away and closer to shore than we were. My daughter turned into the large wake thrown up by that boat and inadvertently caused a second power boat to change it's course. The second power boat would have passed much closer to us than the first and was also putting up a big wake.
I reminded my daughter that you always need to look before changing course.
The female companion of the man driving the second power boat chose to swear at us.
Anyway it got me to thinking about the situation where we were being overtaken by these two boats. They were clearly the burdened vessel and are also responsible for their wakes and any damage they may cause.
we (sailboat) as the stand on vessel should have turned away from the wake of the first boat instead of turning into it as is preferred and safer.

What are the responsibilities of each of the three boats in the situation I've tried to describe?
I'd like to hear everyone's opinion.

[jmschmidt]

Good on ya Howler, I forgot the mnemonic. In passing, clear-ahead means sufficiently far enough ahead so the passing vessel, if it decides to maneuver, can do so without the stand-on vessel having to alter course or speed during or after the pass is completed.

[Lihuedooley77]

yea Stu....right on !

If we all are under sail ( or power ) we will give plenty of sea room to the vessel that we are over taking, and understand that we do not have the right of way again until we have fully passed the vessel that we are over taking and back on our original course. The over taking vessel can announce his intention of which side he is passing on with proper sound signals.
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Of course, another sea ( harbor story )

Light air, we are under main and jib, 3 kts, sailing up newport bay to our slip. Some friends on board, busy , busy day on a sunday in the harbor. We are talking hundreds of water craft and boats, pleasure and commercial operators.

I am at the helm, approaching the area of the balboa ferry that runs 90 degrees to traffic, they motor across the harbor from balboa island to the peninsula and return. Sometimes three ferrys operating at one time..

Lots of moorings and docked boats. Many sailing vessels, and power boats approaching that some what more narrow area of the channel.

One of the lady passengers is sitting on cockpit seat, leaning against the coach roof bulk head looking aft.

"DENNY THERE IS A LARGE BOAT OVER TAKING US " I look back, and she is correct. In my long practiced nautical knowledge of the right of way rules, I announce, HE IS OVER TAKING, WE HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY, HE WILL GO AROUND US. Yeah, will stand by to stand by, things are going to get interesting.

She, a non sailor says, MAYBE SO, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE HE IS COMING VERY FAST.

She was correct. In a matter of few seconds, that large , very expensive,
80 ft, custom sloop is upon us , he is under power. His bow sprit and pupit are now over our stern pulpit.

I stand up at the stern to fend him off......actually , there was no way , strength wise , that I could move that on coming behemouth. But, i pushed our stern away from him, and we escaped being impacted. Very close call.

My Irish was up, and he never slowed down, and was passing close aboard our starboard side. There must have been 20 lubbers laying and standing on his decks sipping their cocktails, bow to stern, port to starboard.

I look for the helmsman. And , there he is, Mr. Newport Beach, Mr. Bucks up, blue blazer, ascot tie, white trousers, topped with one of those mickey mouse captains hats, with a young blond honey snugged to each hip.

Frankly, I do not care how much money or how big your boat is...

So, I look him in the eye as he roars past us....IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE RULES OF THE ROAD, AND HOW TO HANDLE THE HELM , GET SOME ONE ON THERE THAT DOES. ! No effect .

Well, apparently he is not impressed with the P.O'd skipper on a 33 ft Newport sloop under sail, and he lifts his nose on high and gives me one of those limp wrist wave offs....and onward he charges at about 10 kt.

Speed limit in the harbor is 5 mph and no wake.

We get back to our slip at the far closed end of the harbor. His mega yacht is docked at the Balboa Bay Club.

Again, I do not care. I flake the sails, secure the vessel and give her a fresh
water washdown . Then I drive to the NEWPORT BEACH HARBOR DEPT.

I make out report, and the harbies tried to make like it was my fault, and said YOU DID NOT HAVE A STERN WATCH. I said, i certainly did , as I already explained , I was warned that we were being quickly over taken.

Well, of course nothing happened, and life went on.

Never saw that vessel out of it slip again, and that was the usual procedure for the mega yachts at the Balboa Bay Club. They were excellently maintained , and kept shiny, but rested comfortably in their slips.

Point being, he was under power, we were under sail, and a very bad situation was barely avoided, and the overtaking skipper could have cared less if our vessel was damaged or anyone injured or worse.

We all need to have situational awareness at all times, 360 degrees around our vessel. Even then, bad things can raise their dangerous heads.

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To the question by the O.P.

The over taking vessel is the give way or burdened vessel and must remain clear and safely pass the over taken vessel, PERIOD. Over taken should maintain course and speed, he has the right of way.

And the over taking vessel does not have the right of way again until he has passed and is clear of the over taken vessel.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77

... we do not have the right of way again until we have fully passed the vessel ...
...
I announce, HE IS OVER TAKING, WE HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY, HE WILL GO AROUND US. Yeah, will stand by to stand by, things are going to get interesting.
...
The over taking vessel is the give way or burdened vessel and must remain clear and safely pass the over taken vessel, PERIOD. Over taken should maintain course and speed, he has the right of way.

And the over taking vessel does not have the right of way again until he has passed and is clear of the over taken vessel.

Once again:


Please do not use the phrase "right of way" when discussing COLREGs. There is no such concept. No vessel ever has "right of way". Boats only have either the obligation to "stand on" or to "give way".



Use of the phrase "right of way" leads to misconceptions about the actual intent and requirements of COLREGs.



Just because you are being overtaken does not give you "right of way". It obliges you to maintain course and speed until such time as it becomes apparent that the overtaking vessel is not following the Rules. At which time you are obliged to take appropriate action to avoid a collision.



By maintaining your course until his bowsprit was over your pulpit when aware of his approach, you were clearly also in the wrong.

[Lihuedooley77]

well, there are other circumstances that some one slip sailing reading a book does not have a clue about.

My vessel was undersail, in a very narrow section of Newport Harbor's main channel, To my port side are moorings. and little room to tack. To my starboard side are moorings and then docks, and then the ferry dock , and those ferrys have the right of way.

I have other vessels to my port side, in this same narrow pass, on the same tack, I also have what is called situational awareness and there are several fast moving sailing vessels tacking across that very small area on starboard tacks. I am the give way vessel to them.

If I headed up , to close haul on a port tack , all of those vessels on starboard tack , would have no place to go. They are stand on, I am give way, and now things would get really bad. This is very close quarters and very limited room to maneuver.

I do not know what part of a " very busy harbor " that is not understandable.

Also, that 80 foot sailing vessel was under power way above the normal speed limit of 5 mph and no wake. The closure was much, much faster than one would expect. There was no place for me to go.

Add in that was was STAND ON as the over taken vessel....what part of hold course and speed is hard to understand...

We are not in Borneo, this is Newport Harbor, Newport Beach, Calif, with slips and moorings for thousands of boats. And on a summer sunday, there are hundreds of maybe a thousand vessels or more of all kinds underway, making way.

Also, if I would have made a last minute change in course, and if he would have at the same time, made the decision to go around us and he collided with my vessel, that would have been my fault for not holding course and speed. So I do not need any comments about the situation being my fault.

Turns out, my action saved the day, and we were not over run, and no one was injured.

So, Stu, you can okole sit reading the colregs, but you were not there, and have no clue as to the total close quarters situation with many motor vessels, sailing vessels under sail, and on starboard tacks, commercial fishing vessels in the process of docking at the pavillion, vessels going into the fuel dock to starboard just ahead of us, vessels standing by to go into the fuel dock, vessels leaving the fuel dock, and three car / passenger ferrys, crossing at right angled going into and leaving their docks. Add in the harbor tour vessels, and rental boats , power and sailing dinks manned by toursits who know zero about sailing. The fleets of vessels sailing or motoring up the harbor returning of ocean sailing or catalina.

And, I am being run down by an arrogant milliionaire at high speed, from astern, and I have no place to go .

Well, you best not ever sail newport harbor on a summer sunday, because you would not be able to cope with that mele.

Heading up, into those vessels on starboard tacks, would have been a disaster of collisions. There was no room to fall off with moorings and docks to my starboard side, and boats and moorings to my port side, and I would have been on a port tack.

How about the over taking vessel, just sliding over to port, and pass us at that high speed, or some thing easy, go the speed limit or less and move along with the rest of the vessels going the same direction, and then pass when the channel opened up to more area to maneuver.

Oh, in addition to the above marine traffic, also on weekends, they have the yacht club racing regattas, and add in the youth and adult dingy races of 50 or more small dinks racing across the harbor and back.

You have no idea of what Newport Bay is like on a summer weekend day so you might reserve your judement on my actions until you do...

So, play with your colregs, sitting sitting safely at anchor or in a slip, and have fun with the rum. You really have no idea of the the actual situation .


I have been sailing that harbor for 35 years, and not only returning from a day sail at sea, or Catalina, but also teaching basic and intermediate sailing and taking out charters and NEVER HAD A COLLISION .

And, we SAILED the sailing vessels, 30 ft on up, not motoring, and sailed them into the slips at the sailing club under sail. Standard procedure for lessons and personal sailing fun.

If we put you into that exact situation, I doubt you would have even known that you were being over taken since you would not have had a stern watch.
That el speedo turkey would have driven his bow up and over your stern, and most likely over your body and smashed you into the wheel and binnacle.

Also, we do use the terms stand on, and give way, and those terms came out long after I had begun sailing and we imparted that to our students.

So, come sail on over and have a fun summer weekend day sailing newport bay's main channel . Might make an interesting summer sunday afternoon and give you actual experience sailing that very crowded and narrow channel.

Actually, belay that, sitting in a tropical anchorage, sipping on rum, with a happy sea going lady next to you is not a bad plan.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by guyrj33

Recently we were sailing back to our home port staying between the shore and the main channel. We were passed by a large power boat about 200 ft away and closer to shore than we were. My daughter turned into the large wake thrown up by that boat and inadvertently caused a second power boat to change it's course. The second power boat would have passed much closer to us than the first and was also putting up a big wake.
I reminded my daughter that you always need to look before changing course.
The female companion of the man driving the second power boat chose to swear at us.
Anyway it got me to thinking about the situation where we were being overtaken by these two boats. They were clearly the burdened vessel and are also responsible for their wakes and any damage they may cause.
we (sailboat) as the stand on vessel should have turned away from the wake of the first boat instead of turning into it as is preferred and safer.

What are the responsibilities of each of the three boats in the situation I've tried to describe?
I'd like to hear everyone's opinion.

Forgetting the wake situation for a moment - as the overtaken vessel you responsibility is to maintain course and speed, allowing the overtaking vessel (give way) to accurately determine what he needs to do to effectuate a safe maneuver (overtaking).

Now we bring in the wake part - If by turning into the wake you force evasive maneuvers on the part of the second boat - then you are violating the Colreg which say you must maintain course and speed.


Turning away from wake, thereby allowing the second boat to overtake you without being forced into evasive maneuvers is the correct action.

This is a difficult situation, since turning away from the wake might get you pooped (if the wake is big enough, etc)

The power boat is clearly in the wrong by creating a situation where his wake might cause you problems (as the overtaking vessel he is the one who must ensure the maneuver is a safe one.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by guyrj33

Recently we were sailing back to our home port staying between the shore and the main channel. We were passed by a large power boat about 200 ft away and closer to shore than we were. My daughter turned into the large wake thrown up by that boat and inadvertently caused a second power boat to change it's course. The second power boat would have passed much closer to us than the first and was also putting up a big wake.
I reminded my daughter that you always need to look before changing course.
The female companion of the man driving the second power boat chose to swear at us.
Anyway it got me to thinking about the situation where we were being overtaken by these two boats. They were clearly the burdened vessel and are also responsible for their wakes and any damage they may cause.
we (sailboat) as the stand on vessel should have turned away from the wake of the first boat instead of turning into it as is preferred and safer.

What are the responsibilities of each of the three boats in the situation I've tried to describe?
I'd like to hear everyone's opinion.

You are correct in stating that one should look [including behind for any overtaking vessels] before taking action to turn to avoid collision with a wake, simple safety consideration. The overtaking vessel must stand clear of the boat that it is overtaking and that includes situations where the boat that is being overtaken turns from its previous path. Boats change course all the time and the overtaking boat needs to anticipate such to be prepared to slow or change course so as to give way. As to the wake, please reference the article in BoatUS.com linked below, snipets of which I will post here.

You indicated that the power boats were passing nearer to shore which likely means their wakes were going to hit the shoreline with considerable force just like their wakes were going to hit your boat. So the power boats were in essence colliding with your boat and the shoreline with their wakes. I suspect they should have been operating more toward the main channel or in the main channel and not attempting to pass along the shoreside. Wakes lose a bit of their force as the wave energy dissipates slowly as it progresses through the water hence keeping a lot of distance from another boat or a shore aids in mitigating wake effects and wake dangers, but it takes a lot of distance for a wake to resolve itself. 200 feet isn't going to resolve a wake to any meaningful degree.

Hitting a boat or property with your wake is a collision and you are responsible for damages and injuries caused by the wake, no matter how far away the damage or injury occurs from the boats course of travel. In your instance, your daughter turned your boat in an attempt to mitigate the danger from the pending collision with the offending wake which is an appropriate action, [albeit with another overtaking boat nearby the better course change may have been to turn and run away from the large wake so as to simultaneously avoid the collision with the wake and a possible collision with the other overtaking vessel]. Sometimes choices are difficult and have to be made quickly. Unfortunately there are many boaters who drive their boats like they are driving in a passing lane and expect slower traffic to keep right and stay in the right lane. But there are times when one driving slowly and need to turn left or move to the "left lane" and then the overtaking needs to be delayed or changed to the starboard side. Sometimes I think that it would be beneficial if boats had turn signals and braking lights so as to provide guidance to other boaters of their intention to turn or to slow just as is the case when driving land vehicles. Maritime could learn that obviousness from landlubbers.

https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/mag...-liability.asp

As to the BoatUS.com article, the situation was that two powered boats were passing a jon boat that was poling along while fishing. The combination of the two boat's wakes resulted in a much larger wave that violently rolled the jon boat causing serious injuries to the jon boat passengers.

"Here's an interesting point: Nowhere in the Inland Rules of Navigation will you find any mention of a duty for recreational vessels to control their wakes. Still, our two hypothetical vessels are not saved by the lack of an explicit rule.

Courts applying the General Maritime Law are entitled to interpret the rules of the road to reflect their understanding of the norms of maritime navigation. That means the rules are not necessarily what they say, but what courts think they mean. Courts have used at least two of the navigational rules to hold operators liable for the damage caused by their wakes.

First, courts have ruled that when a vessel's wake collides with another vessel and causes damage, Rule (6) of the Inland Rules applies. This rule provides that each vessel "shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision." The courts read the word "collision" to include both a collision with a vessel's hull and a collision with its wake. Applied to our motor yacht and sportfish, both failed to proceed at a safe enough speed to prevent their wake from colliding with the jon boat, so they are presumed negligent. The only defense available is for the operators to prove conclusively that their wakes did not cause the injuries to the jon boat passengers, an impossible burden.

Second, courts have used the catch-all rule, Rule 2(b) of the Inland rules, to hold operators liable for their wake. Rule 2(b) provides that "due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances ... which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger." As courts read this rule, an operator of a vessel is required to do anything and everything to prevent a collision (including a collision with a vessel's wake). Applied to our motor yacht and sportfish, no defense to liability exists. Neither took any action to prevent a collision between their wakes and the jon boat. Both are equally responsible for all the damage to the jon boat and its passengers.

If you haven't already figured it out, this narrative is based on a true story that resulted in an unhappy ending for those aboard the motoryacht, the sportfish, and the jon boat. If that does not scare you enough, remember that if the owner was operating the vessel, the injured person can come after the owner for any damages in excess of the value of the vessel, and prosecutors can bring criminal charges. The moral of the story is: Watch your wake!"

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by guyrj33

Recently we were sailing back to our home port staying between the shore and the main channel. We were passed by a large power boat about 200 ft away and closer to shore than we were. My daughter turned into the large wake thrown up by that boat and inadvertently caused a second power boat to change it's course. The second power boat would have passed much closer to us than the first and was also putting up a big wake.
I reminded my daughter that you always need to look before changing course.
The female companion of the man driving the second power boat chose to swear at us.
Anyway it got me to thinking about the situation where we were being overtaken by these two boats. They were clearly the burdened vessel and are also responsible for their wakes and any damage they may cause.
we (sailboat) as the stand on vessel should have turned away from the wake of the first boat instead of turning into it as is preferred and safer.

What are the responsibilities of each of the three boats in the situation I've tried to describe?
I'd like to hear everyone's opinion.

Inland rules require the overtaking vessel to signal their intention, two, one second toots if the intention is to overtake on the port side [left] and one, one second toot if the intention is to overtake on the starboard side [right] and the stand on vessel that is to be overtaken is to reply acknowledgement of the overtaking [give way] vessels intention with a similar signal and proceed to stand on as to their course and speed. If there is no acknowledgement by the stand on vessel then the overtaking [give way] boat is to recognize that their intention was not received and/or their intention was not accepted, and should proceed to give way and exercise due caution anticipating that the stand on boat may change course and / or speed.

Departure From Regulations to Avoid Immediate Danger [such as apparently was the instance when your vessel was about to collide with a dangerous incoming wake from a previously overtaking vessel].
At times it may be necessary to depart from the inland waters rules in order to avoid immediate danger. When, from any cause the vessel required to keep its course and speed [the stand on boat] finds itself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, the operator shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision. This action does not relieve the give-way vessel of its obligation to keep out of the way. The give-way vessel is that vessel required to take early and substantial action to keep well away from other vessels by stopping, slowing or changing course.

The second overtaking power boat should have delayed its overtaking until the first overtaking power boat had completed its overtaking and its wake had passed clear of the overtaken, stand on boat. But then go fast boaters just don't like to throttle down so they barge ahead and often follow the leader come hell or high water [i.e., high wake].

Your daughter took action to avoid immediate danger from the large wake of the first overtaking power boat. Her alternative action may have been to turn away from the incoming wake, but that could have lead to loss of control as your stern can be abruptly shifted by a steep wake, and / or you could take on water over the stern. In any case, a collision was emanate and she took an action chosen to mitigate such collision. The second overtaking vessel needed to give way and stand clear as all vessels shall all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision, including and especially when overtaking. It sounds like the second overtaking vessel was also not providing for adequate safe distance in their overtaking which compounded their endangeriing actions as they failed to provide for adequate distance to provide for course changes of the overtaken vessel. A stand on vessel often needs to change direction, e.g., their is flotsam or a crossing boat, or a change in the direction of the channel or shoreline. Stand on does not mean just continue to go in the same direction when there are reasons to need to change directions, especially to avoid collisions.

You were correct in providing guidance to your daughter to maintain situational awareness so as to be informed of all the positions and actions of all the vessels in proximity so as to be better capable of making a wise and instantaneous decision, but she still needed to make a decision and did so with the extent of awareness and knowledge [incomplete as it was] she had at the moment. With better situational awareness she might have anticipated the large wake and also the position, direction and speed of a second overtaking vessel and opted a different tactic. Experience gained and the better for it.