Which rule takes precedence

[jmschmidt]

Interesting story. I would have been tempted to let him hit me and then buy me a new boat. But on second thought these types of jackasses sometimes don't have nearly as much money as you might think.

[kurtis king]

the overtaken vessel is the stand on vessel.

[polaris49]

Originally Posted by StuM

Once again:


Please do not use the phrase "right of way" when discussing COLREGs. There is no such concept. No vessel ever has "right of way". Boats only have either the obligation to "stand on" or to "give way".

There is one place in the COLREGs where "right of way" is used--Inland waters on the western rivers. A vessel descending a river with current behind it has "right of way". Otherwise, the term "right of way" is not used in the present form of the COLREGs.

Under rule 9:

(ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing.

[larrymac]

Seems to me someone should weigh in on the vital question of “When, exactly, is a sailboat a “sailing vessel”? Basically, ONLY when underway on sail power. A sailboat, underway on engine power, is a powerboat. Lots of sailing skippers tend to disregard this, and erroneously rely on having a sail up to qualify them as a “sailing vessel”. They then put themselves and others in danger by acting as an ‘entitled sailor’! One of my pet peeves, even though I’m a sailing skipper!!

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by larrymac

Seems to me someone should weigh in on the vital question of “When, exactly, is a sailboat a “sailing vessel”? Basically, ONLY when underway on sail power. A sailboat, underway on engine power, is a powerboat. Lots of sailing skippers tend to disregard this, and erroneously rely on having a sail up to qualify them as a “sailing vessel”. They then put themselves and others in danger by acting as an ‘entitled sailor’! One of my pet peeves, even though I’m a sailing skipper!!

It does seem quite rare to see an inverted black cone day marker when a sailboat is motoring. I suspect those that raise a cone are also to be the most likely to act as if they are a motoring boat.

If you doubt such routine lack of use of black cones, just try to find pictures or videos on the web or in sailing magazines where there is a sailboat flying a black cone when they are motoring, or motor sailing. What you will find are many motoring sailboats without an inverted black cone raised.

An example.

[URL="https://www.videoblocks.com/video/sailboat-with-reflection-motor-sailing-across-calm-water-axxl9yw"]

Ditto as to use of black ball day marker when anchoring.

[polaris49]

Originally Posted by larrymac

Seems to me someone should weigh in on the vital question of “When, exactly, is a sailboat a “sailing vessel”? Basically, ONLY when underway on sail power. A sailboat, underway on engine power, is a powerboat. Lots of sailing skippers tend to disregard this, and erroneously rely on having a sail up to qualify them as a “sailing vessel”. They then put themselves and others in danger by acting as an ‘entitled sailor’! One of my pet peeves, even though I’m a sailing skipper!!

The COLREGs are clear on that. As soon as a sailboat begins using mechanical power to propel the vessel, it is then a power vessel. Just turning on the engine (to run the generator, or to have engine power on stand-by) does not render the vessel a power vessel. It is the propulsion that makes the distinction.

[Lcdr47]

And don’t forget, a “Vessel constrained by draught” can only be a power driven vessel. If you a a deep keel boat limited to sailing in a channel, and you approach a power driven vessel showing CBD shapes/lights, you are the give way vessel.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Lcdr47

And don’t forget, a “Vessel constrained by draught” can only be a power driven vessel. If you a a deep keel boat limited to sailing in a channel, and you approach a power driven vessel showing CBD shapes/lights, you are the give way vessel.

Please clarify that one in COLREGS. If a deep sailboat that can only operate in the Channel meets a smaller power boat, the sailboat is CBD.

[neflier]

Originally Posted by larrymac

Seems to me someone should weigh in on the vital question of “When, exactly, is a sailboat a “sailing vessel”? Basically, ONLY when underway on sail power. A sailboat, underway on engine power, is a powerboat. Lots of sailing skippers tend to disregard this, and erroneously rely on having a sail up to qualify them as a “sailing vessel”. They then put themselves and others in danger by acting as an ‘entitled sailor’! One of my pet peeves, even though I’m a sailing skipper!!

Agreed, but with sails up and not displaying the inverted cone, my only option is to treat the motor sailor as a sailing vessel when it comes to stand on / give way. If there is evidence that the engine is running, then I still have no idea if the transmission is in gear.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Howler

The mnemonic we used in captain's license class for the right-of-way pecking order was, "Over Night Rooms For Sale Plus Supper".

1. Overtaken vessel
2. Not under command
3. Restricted ability to maneuver
4. Commercial fishing vessels
5. Sailing vessels
6. Power driven vessels
7. Seaplane

Good reminder to us sailors that we're third from the BOTTOM of the list!

And yes, a sailboat overtaking a power boat gives way to the power boat.

Alternatively...


Only Overtaken
New Not Under Command
Reels Restricted in ability to maneuver
Catch Constrained by draft
Fish Fishing
So Sailing
Purchase Power driven
Some Seaplanes

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Snore

Please clarify that one in COLREGS. If a deep sailboat that can only operate in the Channel meets a smaller power boat, the sailboat is CBD.

Regulation 3(h)

(h) The term "vessel constrained by her draught" means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draught in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

Sailing vessels cannot qualify according to this regulation

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Snore

Please clarify that one in COLREGS. If a deep sailboat that can only operate in the Channel meets a smaller power boat, the sailboat is CBD.

Actually, if you are in the inland waters of the USA, you are both wrong, because there is no constrained by draft definition in the Inland Rules.

But in the International Colregs Rule 3 (h) The term “vessel constrained by her draft” means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

So you see by the definition a sailing vessel can NOT be a CBD vessel...

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by billknny

Actually, if you are in the inland waters of the USA, you are both wrong, because there is no constrained by draft definition in the Inland Rules.

But in the International Colregs Rule 3 (h) The term “vessel constrained by her draft” means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

So you see by the definition a sailing vessel can NOT be a CBD vessel...

I was citing the international regulations. The US inland regs are a special case. I suspect (don't know for certain) that many other inland regs have differences to the international regs - but unless you live there or normally sail there you wouldn't know.

Generally, because this is an international forum - we talk about the international regs unless otherwise stated..........

[Snore]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Regulation 3(h)



(h) The term "vessel constrained by her draught" means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draught in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.



Sailing vessels cannot qualify according to this regulation

Ok yes you are right. To be CBD I need to be under power.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Regulation 3(h)

(h) The term "vessel constrained by her draught" means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draught in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

In most US Inland Waters, unfortunately you will find many a vessel that is constrained by her draught BEER. Especially on holiday weekends, like today's Labor Day.

A sailboat that is motoring [with or without its sails up] is a power driven vessel and can because of a deep keel and shallow water way be constrained by its draught, if as per the ColReg, "in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following". Fortunately there are relatively few such truly narrow channels that one would take a sailboat into where she couldn't deviate at least moderately so as to allow for another vessel to navigate, passing alongside.

Life get's interesting when two or more such vessels arrive in the same draught constraining channel at the same time and thence try to occupy the same hole in the water wherein something bigger than the Pauli Exclusion principle applies.