World Passport?

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by lorenzo b

I'm not at all clear on why the location of my birth should define where I can live, work, and travel. I was born in Spain of German parents, raised and lived most of my life in the USA and am now in Panama. I can pretty much go where I want and do what I want and I cannot see any reason to deny anyone the same rights I myself enjoy. It truly disturbs me to know that the people of the world cannot travel freely as I can.

There are several billion people in this world who can do my job better, quicker and wayyy cheaper than me - and would be very happy to be able to do so. Why would I want them competing on my doorstep??? Out of "fairness"??! Lol!

The numbers might be slightly different for "you" - but the principal the same. Folks cutting the legs out of "your" income does not simply apply to folks making plastic widgets on min wage. Individually does not matter, but accross a society (country) very destablising - as comes a point when folks realise that they need to find a new tribe to represent them because the current one is not doing so...and that don't usually involve voting .

A fine line between freemarket capitalism and absolute stupidity......

[Gelfling]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

There are several billion people in this world who can do my job better, quicker and wayyy cheaper than me - and would be very happy to be able to do so. Why would I want them competing on my doorstep??? Out of "fairness"??! Lol!

The numbers might be slightly different for "you" - but the principal the same. Folks cutting the legs out of "your" income does not simply apply to folks making plastic widgets on min wage. Individually does not matter, but accross a society (country) very destablising - as comes a point when folks realise that they need to find a new tribe to represent them because the current one is not doing so...and that don't usually involve voting .

A fine line between freemarket capitalism and absolute stupidity......

Bravo sir.......bravo. Nicely said indeed.

[goboatingnow]

and that don't usually involve voting

In fact I dont think its ever involved voting !!, and just where do all those taht need em, suddenly find all those guns.....

[lorenzo b]

What I'm suggesting is that the very concept of tribalism is an anachronism in the modern world, we no longer need it to thrive, indeed it stunts us.

[Gelfling]

Originally Posted by lorenzo b

What I'm suggesting is that the very concept of tribalism is an anachronism in the modern world, we no longer need it to thrive, indeed it stunts us.

Actually the modern world has proven tribalism to be much more of a necessity than ever before. Examples of this would be the new tribes such as CF, and probably one of the biggest known in history, FB. Others could include, Twitter...etc. And in this digital age, the question of "where do loyalties lie?" could become even more important when 'hive minds' are the dominant tribal form. In re-reading your previous posts, at one time I would have agreed with you....but today I cannot. Each physical 'tribe' should have the option to protect itself from criminals, disease, and any other threat .....potential or actual. Unfortunately, many have used this as a way to create a threat to justify the process........ sadly.

[hellosailor]

Let's not forget there are states with INTERNAL passports and INTERNAL travel papers, not just the generous sovereigns who have border controls. Databases mean nothing and you can't rack anyone, unless you are constantly accosting them, interrogating them, processing them, or scanning them. You cross the border, you fall off the books, so just how bad is it when a sovereign only checks at the border to find out who you might be?

The world, economics, possessions, wealth, this is all what is called a "zero sum game". There's only so many islands, so many steaks, no many pieces of gold to go around. Either I've got one or you've got one, we can't both have it all, and whatever I have is something you don't have, and vice versa. That's why they call it "zero sum" because you add up what who has, and what who hasn't, and the sum is always zero.

And that's why tribes are going to be around for a long long time, because it will always be "me and my..." trying to get stuff for overselves, which means taking it away from someone else. Charity, selflessness...Unless you are willing to live with no possessions and take a vow of poverty, whatever you have is something you are depriving someone else of.

Game Theory is not about toys.

[lorenzo b]

Well y'all can gather up all your possessions and wrap yourself up in a big old flag, I'm off to the San Blas to hang with the Kuna.
Ciao.

[hellosailor]

Ah, tell us all that tribalism is an anachromism, and then go off to visit with a fairly small tribal culture. Good luck convincing the Kuna to just disperse, or to convert the world to their way to doing things.

[capngeo]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Out of ordinary may or may not be perceived as a problem. It may just be entertainment for a bored uniform. I've yet to have a problem when someone asks me "Nature of your visit?" and I usually reply "Invasion and conquest" instead of "business" or "pleasure". (It helps if you are smiling when saying something like that. Or, smiling immediately after saying it.)

Once upon returning to the US (I'm a US citizen) the bored Customs agent asked "what is the purpose of your visit to the USA?"

To which I replied "Uh? I'm going home you idiot!" Only took me 4 more hours to clear Customs after that.

[wolfenzee]

Just because someone has aa world passport would not guarantee entrance into a country. It states you have no political affiliation to any one country which in someways is good but also means you are not going to receive the protection a particular country provides it's citizens (you have no embassy to help you unless of course you keep a current passport to a particular country...which sort of defeats the purpose. The main theme behind this thread isn't so much having a world passport but allowing boaters to travel more freely between and/or in foregien countries

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Let's not forget there are states with INTERNAL passports and INTERNAL travel papers, not just the generous sovereigns who have border controls. Databases mean nothing and you can't rack anyone, unless you are constantly accosting them, interrogating them, processing them, or scanning them. You cross the border, you fall off the books, so just how bad is it when a sovereign only checks at the border to find out who you might be?

The world, economics, possessions, wealth, this is all what is called a "zero sum game". There's only so many islands, so many steaks, no many pieces of gold to go around. Either I've got one or you've got one, we can't both have it all, and whatever I have is something you don't have, and vice versa. That's why they call it "zero sum" because you add up what who has, and what who hasn't, and the sum is always zero.

And that's why tribes are going to be around for a long long time, because it will always be "me and my..." trying to get stuff for overselves, which means taking it away from someone else. Charity, selflessness...Unless you are willing to live with no possessions and take a vow of poverty, whatever you have is something you are depriving someone else of.

Game Theory is not about toys.

An economy is not a zero sum game. When you are productive, i.e. produce something, you have created something of value that didn't exist before,
and therefore the world now has +1, not zero.

The stock market is zero sum because it creates nothing of value.

This World Passport means nothing, it is someone selling you something fake.
Did my fake id's work to get into a bar? yes. A fake passport that some country accepts is still a fake passport. There is no "world" country.
A passport is issued by a Nation/Country, not someone with a printer and a bank account.

Now if you would like to discuss citizenship and what defines a nation, that is a different matter than a fake passport.

[Syserenity]

How would Ecuador accept a World Passport, when Ecuadorians properly have to request travel visas to get out of their country? I´d love to hear about since I then would change my Ecuadorian Passport to a World Passport (free exchange)...

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by lorenzo b

What I'm suggesting is that the very concept of tribalism is an anachronism in the modern world, we no longer need it to thrive, indeed it stunts us.

Maybe sometime in the 4th Millenium it might be - but I wouldn't bet on even that!

Humans are a pack animal, and competitive by nature with a large streak of self interest......it's what drives us to succeed - and makes us human. The only thing that Communism got wrong (IMO nothing wrong with the idea!) is that it didn't (and couldn't) take account of Human Nature.

That don't mean that the nation state will always be relevant in the same ways as it has been historically - but getting rid of the concept (which requires border controls) runs the risk of fragmentation, even (especially?!) when the goal is noble by internationalising governance. IMO the nation state is about as big as any tribe can get in a sustainable way (empires never last), and even some of those presently around are too big too sustain as the world changes (lots in Africa, some in the Middle East - and possibly even the US , my take is that to sustain it will require a de-centralised / looser (EU style?!) Federal coalition of the States - a Confederacy? ).

One of the ironies is that the side effect of globalisation is the distancing of even national Governments from it's people....humans, like nature, abhor a vacum....... and with people all it takes is one looney with a catchy slogan and the promise of Xmas every day .

My view of the future is more smaller countries / States acting in coalition / in blocs (on limited terms), and that includes free exchange of peoples (EU & US style) - each too small to cause too much trouble unilaterally globally and needing a damned good reason to act collectively, so leaving other countries to succeed or fail from own devices........in the long term benefit of all (rather than keeping countries full of 3rd world peasants having them like "us" economically provides opportunities for us as well as downsides).

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

An economy is not a zero sum game. When you are productive, i.e. produce something, you have created something of value that didn't exist before,
and therefore the world now has +1, not zero.

The stock market is zero sum because it creates nothing of value.

The old forgotten concept of producing wealth (and not simply money)......I wonder if it will make a comeback........

In regard to the stockmarket I would argue that it is not a Zero sum game - it's a -1 game! (i.e. it is destructive!), at least when used in the manner to which we have become accustomed. The original idea was a means of raising capital to fund real world activities (and to acheive that by allowing folks to quickly enter and exit an investment) - whereas the modern way is to treat it like Horse racing with the real money made off the track from the betting industry (and not from breeding horses, nor even from the prize money). Basing an economy heavily on book-making would be bizarre enough without allowing the bookies to create own money by treating the betting slips as "wealth" ......no real surprise that things have gone a bit wrong .

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

This World Passport means nothing, it is someone selling you something fake.
Did my fake id's work to get into a bar? yes. A fake passport that some country accepts is still a fake passport. There is no "world" country.
A passport is issued by a Nation/Country, not someone with a printer and a bank account.

I agree with this statement.

The same logic applies to any passport from any country. All the governments are a scam (using printer and bank accounts to issue fake passports)