Yet another COLREGS situation

[Scorpius]

If your story is accurate and unbiased (as it appears to be) the skipper of the incoming power boat was an idiot. A sensible person would have slowed or stopped outside to give you and the following sailboat the clear use of the channel until you were past and he could go in with the whole place to himself: no problem. That would have been both consistent with COLREGS and common sense, and courteous.

That you were bounced around by his wake is also a red flag to me. Isn't there a speed limit or go slow, no wake rule coming in there? My memory is that that harbour is HEAVILY regulated and I'd be astonished if there is no speed limit.

We have many very tight, busy harbours and harbour entrances around here (Westview comes to mind) and entering vessels are USUALLY very good about waiting outside until exiting vessels are clear - although we also have problems with high breakwaters (and with 16' tides they are REALLY high at low tide) obscuring vision of all but the very largest power boats.

Maybe the fast pace of life in Southern California just doesn't allow for such patience and courtesy

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I have joined in the discussion of the 2 most recent threads on this subject, but would like some input on another situation that recently happened to me.

Facts:

Channel Islands Harbor in California has a "T" shaped harbor mouth. You can only exit from the harbor to the north or south because there is a breakwater across the mouth of the harbor.

There are currently dredging operations going on with some sort of large discharge outlet occupying the north entrance to the harbor. Some traffic can/does go through but most traffic is currently using the south entrance to avoid the discharge apparatus.

There are piled rock jetty's on each side of the harbor leading toward the breakwater which limit visibility for smaller craft to the right/left as they leave the harbor.



Situation:

I'm a new sailor taking lessons in a Catalina 22. We were motoring with the main up toward the harbor exit with plans on taking the south exit as usual. I had an overtaking sailboat behind, also motoring with the main up. The tide was out making the channel narrower than at any other water level so I was staying toward the center of the channel for both keel clearance and to avoid the discharge thingy to my starboard that was noisily spraying water.

A non commercial motor vessel, approx 1/8 mile outside the harbor, was approaching the harbor entrance at a fairly fast speed. I estimate maybe 15 knots or so but I'm not positive of that, just that it was a lot faster than I was going. He was to my port side. His boat was between 30 and 40 feet long.


What happened:

The motor vessel to my port passed across my bow, went between me and the breakwater then turned to pass between me and the discharge unit, and then threaded the needle between me and the overtaking sailboat behind.

I enjoyed the thrill ride of his wake as we bounced through it.


Analysis:

This turned out to be a "2 motor vessels crossing" situation but should have been a "2 vessels approaching head on" situation. I was to his starboard and was, under the rules for either situation, the stand on vessel. Giving way would have required that I either turn to starboard, potentially cutting off the overtaking sailboat behind me and/or grounding on the side of the channel or hitting the discharge thingy. Turning to port, into the crossing motor vessel would have potentially resulted in a head on collision.

My status as a motor vessel would have been unable to have been determined by the power boat early on because of the jetty blocking his view. However my main was up and that was above the height of the jetty and should have been visible to the power boat as I approached the harbor mouth. The sailboat behind me was also motoring with his main up and that boat was at least 30 feet or so long with a taller mast. Both of our sails should have been visible over the top of the jetty. Our propulsion status from his point of view would at that time have been either sail powered or undetermined.

There was sufficient depth and room for the powerboat to pass on my port side as he entered the harbor. It might have been tight, but I'm absolutely positive he could have done it with several feet to spare between his boat and mine. We were, at minimum, 30 - 40 feet away from the jetty on his side. I would like to say there was 40 - 50 feet between us and the jetty but can't be sure of that after the fact. The jetty slope is fairly steep and there would be 3 - 4 feet of clear depth as close as 10 feet away even at low tide.

All I could do at the moment the power boat decided to cross my bow was stand on until I had enough room to steer to port and pass behind his stern. I have no idea if the sailboat behind me said unkind words out loud or not.


The dilemma and need for advice:

I'm not really concerned about who was right, and who was wrong, I was the stand-on vessel and doing my part under the rules although I only know this after reflection - I did not know this at the moment. Yet I keep thinking about it and wondering if I did the right thing. As a noob I don't have the automatic reaction speed to act quickly when things get crazy. What actually happened was that I froze for about a minute, and then turned to port after he was out of my way.

Which now raises the dilemma; can I trust that other mariners will act according to the COLREGS or is it total anarchy out there? And, if it's anarchy, then is the only real purpose of the COLREGS nothing more than a device used to assign blame after the fact?

When in close quarters and in doubt about what the other boat is going to do it is not a bad idea to call the other boat on channel 16, request switch to common frequency, and confirm your intentions...hopefully the other boat will do likewise. I have experienced this exchange a number of times.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

If your story is accurate and unbiased (as it appears to be) the skipper of the incoming power boat was an idiot. A sensible person would have slowed or stopped outside to give you and the following sailboat the clear use of the channel until you were past and he could go in with the whole place to himself: no problem. That would have been both consistent with COLREGS and common sense, and courteous.

That you were bounced around by his wake is also a red flag to me. Isn't there a speed limit or go slow, no wake rule coming in there? My memory is that that harbour is HEAVILY regulated and I'd be astonished if there is no speed limit.

We have many very tight, busy harbours and harbour entrances around here (Westview comes to mind) and entering vessels are USUALLY very good about waiting outside until exiting vessels are clear - although we also have problems with high breakwaters (and with 16' tides they are REALLY high at low tide) obscuring vision of all but the very largest power boats.

Maybe the fast pace of life in Southern California just doesn't allow for such patience and courtesy

Of course we also have mandatory licensing - which includes a test on at least the most common applications of COLREGS.

[jim King]

it seems sailers have more knowledge and appreciation for the rules of the road. You just can't trust the stinkpots to do the right thing. no offence to the motor cruisers on the forum. It's those cowboys in the speedboats I'm referring to.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by MJH

When in close quarters and in doubt about what the other boat is going to do it is not a bad idea to call the other boat on channel 16, request switch to common frequency, and confirm your intentions...hopefully the other boat will do likewise. I have experienced this exchange a number of times.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

I'll bet that, in this situation:
1. There wasn't time, and
2. The power boat probably wouldn't hear the call, and even if he did, probably would not reply. I'll bet his radio wasn't even on - although his stereo probably was.

You raise a good point though. Call the harbourmaster and report the incident. Maybe he'll have a chat with the skipper as he checks in. There was a real possibility of an accident in your encounter and harbourmasters generally don't like to have to deal with accidents. What's the fatality pyramid: Ten incidents and you have an accident. Ten accidents and you have a fatality. I know those are fairly accurate ratios for workplace accidents. They may be different for boating but the principle is, I think, still valid.

[garychurch]

In challenging situations it’s always best to communicate and coordinate actions.

Do you have a signaling device (I.e., horn) and/or a radio tuned to Channel 16? AIS is invaluable if you need to communicate via radio.

There are many rules some people know them and some people don’t. Even those that know them may be unable or unwilling to comply. Communicate if at all possible. Don’t forget the rule that says regardless of the rule it is your responsibility to avoid collision and do what you need to do.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

The sail being hoisted on both boats was included because that should have informed the power boat that the harbor had outbound traffic and potentially that traffic was under sail rather than power.

You either ARE under power, or you are ARE NOT under power. There is no such thing as "hoisting the sail to indicate that you MIGHT be under power".

The whole North, South thing is irrelevant.

Please simply clarify:

The power boat in question was oncoming?

Which side of you was the overtaking sailboat on?

If the oncoming powerboat moved from a Port/Port pass, to a Stbd/Stbd pass, was it because the overtaking sailboat was overtaking on your Port?

Which side of the overtaking sailboat did the powerboat pass on??

[boatman61]

Rules are great.. but real life is rarely that simple..

[NorthCoastJoe]

Sounds like the incoming boat was too fast for conditions.

My thought about motoring with mains up, did you have your black cone flying?
I actually use mine and the anchor ball too.

[Clivevon]

Hi. Thanks for the interesting post. I find that, being stuck in lockdown not even able to get down to the boat for winter maintenance, the discussions on the Forum are helping to keep me sane.

I thought I would approach this question from the point of view of what it might give you simply as a learning experience, since you say you are new, in the hope that it is useful. So, in no particular order, these thoughts occur.

You do need to know the ColRegs. Absolutely. Know them, understand them, & and abide by them. They are there for the PREVENTION of collision at sea. They are NOT there just to decide who was in the right after the fact. You will have seen on the other discussions that understanding them is not always that simple which is why discussions like this are so useful – everyone here is thinking about them & hopefully learning more.

Who was skipper on your boat at the time? You say you are taking lessons so presumably had an instructor on board. Who was in charge – you or him? An instructor might well leave you in charge & only step in if he sees a serious risk to life or limb. It would be as well to clear this up with the instructor every trip, before leaving the dock.

Can you trust other mariners to abide by the Colregs? Not completely, no – so watch them. There are plenty of people out there who haven’t got a clue. Do not trust anyone else to take action to prevent damage, injury or worse on your boat. What happens on your boat is always your sole responsibility – that is what being skipper means. Understand that.

There are lots of people who think that because they can drive a car they can handle a motor boat. They know nothing about navigation or colregs – nothing. They might be able to afford a small boat or a big boat – no matter. They are out there – lots of them. Do not be surprised by that.

Sailors can be as bad. Plenty of them think that because they are in a race they have some kind of priority. They don’t. The normal Colregs apply to them just the same. Of course, a prudent, polite, gentlemanly cruiser who has options open to him might choose to exercise those options to keep out of their way in good time – but that is up to him. Due to wind, tide & other factors he might not have those options. In some places (the Solent in the season) there are several large racing fleets out – all at the same time. Do not be surprised by that.

I don’t know the area & cant definitively picture the situation from your description but I get the general idea.

Having your mainsail up makes you more visible, which is good. It does not mean someone will assume you are sailing. In that situation, I would think you were probably motoring (leaving harbour with no foresail up). Ideally, no one should have to assume anything. Did you have your motoring cone up? If not, why not?

What was the tide doing – ebbing, flooding, strong, weak? You need to know.

Was there a harbour speed limit in force? Don’t expect others to abide by it though.

In case you are the 2nd boat in future- it is NOT a good idea to overtake other vessels in a narrow harbour entrance – wait in line & follow the boat ahead until you are out. Be prepared for others to make unpredictable course changes.

It can get crowded – like you wouldn’t believe. Google the Hamble Scramble sometime…. Don’t be surprised by that.

Br brave – but not stupid.

Large powerboat wakes are a common problem. Live with it. Don’t get upset – its like getting upset at the sun for rising in the morning. The drivers (they aren’t seamen) of these boats NEVER look behind to see the mayhem they are causing. They are complete pigs. When you see it coming, loudly shout out “WASH” to warn crew down below who will otherwise be completely unaware. Always.

Be aware that many boats have autopilots – do NOT assume that the other boat has a human in charge. He/she may be distracted, on the loo – or in bed with his/her girl/boy friend (or a single hander catching some sleep under way – but lets not go there… They are all heroes, aren’t they.)

Enough.

[Shrew]

If my earlier description was accurate, it sounds like you standing-on was the correct course of action. However, I don't see that any of the other vessels really did anything wrong either, short of not giving horn signals. There is no mention of whether that area was specifically marked 'no wake'.

Sure you probably got spooked a little, and it's admittedly a bit rude to wake people.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

And, again, I'm not looking to point fingers. In my mind the guy was crazy to come flying into the harbor mouth knowing all that was going on regardless of who was stand on or not, but that's not the issue. The issue is as I stated; are the COLREGS just something to use to assign blame after the debris and bodies are cleared from the water or are they actually rules that we're supposed to know and follow?

.

Trying to describe a real life situation clearly without a picture is very difficult. Or Unfortunately to difficult for me to figure out without a picture.

You might be a bit frustrated with it all.

The rules are supposed to be a guide to help you make sense of the actions. Of other vessels.
The rules also provide the other vessels with a guide to the actions your vessel will take.

Theoretically everything goes smoothly and everyone is happy.

Reality sometimes doesn’t work quite so well.
Even so the rules give you guidance on how to respond when other don’t respond as the rules intend.

Once the lawyers get involved it’s already to late, there just going to get well paid to argue about what already happened.

Once you become familiar with the rules it starts to make sense,
A rough working knowledge is all you need to get by.
Along with a little bit of common sense.

Common sense is not very common.

Rules are there to guide the wise. Rules are adhered to by fools.[/QUOTE]

Colregs are rules you damn well better follow. A few years back while windsurfing in Lanikai. Hi. I was nearly hit by a beach cat screaming into the beach on my port side (making me the starboard vessel) I had to drop my sail to avoid the collision as the only direction I could turn was to port due to the wind direction. The kid sailing the cat had a good laugh as he cut me off. About the time he got to the beach (still at full sail) a Coast Guard 20' Boston Whaler comes around the bend and cuffs him on the beach before taking his boat in tow for impound. I suspect they had been laying for this guy to screw up as they usually didn't patrol those waters and were probably acting on a previous complaint. I'm pretty sure his little encounter with me was the last nail in his coffin. I gave him a big wave as they carted him off - he wasn't laughing anymore So yes. Colregs do matter especially when the CG is watching.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

...

Which now raises the dilemma; can I trust that other mariners will act according to the COLREGS or is it total anarchy out there? And, if it's anarchy, then is the only real purpose of the COLREGS nothing more than a device used to assign blame after the fact?

Depending on location, it is total anarchy. Usually, it is small power boats or jet skies, are the cause, but larger power craft can be a problem, as can paddle boats, and gasp, sail boats.

You have to keep your wits about you.

I have spent quite a bit of time on power and sail boats in South Florida on the ICW. It IS anarchy.

Once upon a time we were at anchor in a sail boat in the keys. A sport fisher came hauling a...s and went OVER our anchor rode. To be more accurate, he went between the bow of our boat and the anchor. No reason for that a... hole to have done that. None. He was heading to go under a bridge and he easily could have turned a few degrees to port MILES from us and lost very little time. He just wanted to rock the sailboat. Most of the anchor rode was rope and we were hoping his props found the line...

Where we are sailing now requires a bit of time on the ICW and going out an inlet. Not as bad as South FLA but it can still be a zoo. Or maybe I am just used to it.

Jet skis do what jet skis do. Some power boats are zipping all over the place without regard to other traffic.

Once we get away from the ICW and the inlet, things approve greatly simply because there are less boats once one gets a mile or so offshore. The farther ye go the less eejots.

Having said that, I do wonder if the trawlers wonder what we are doing. We do NOT get close to them, but it seems those danged trawlers are just where we need to go because of the wind. We end up sailing towards them too often before tacking away. They might think we are eejots.

Later,
Dan

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Shrew

You either ARE under power, or you are ARE NOT under power. There is no such thing as "hoisting the sail to indicate that you MIGHT be under power".

The whole North, South thing is irrelevant.

Please simply clarify:

The power boat in question was oncoming?

Which side of you was the overtaking sailboat on?

If the oncoming powerboat moved from a Port/Port pass, to a Stbd/Stbd pass, was it because the overtaking sailboat was overtaking on your Port?

Which side of the overtaking sailboat did the powerboat pass on??

I don't get you at all.

The main sails on TWO vessels were UP and VISIBLE over the jetty, thereby indicating to anyone approaching that the harbor mouth was occupied by outbound traffic in an area where there was restricted maneuverability, for multiple reasons, thereby eliminating the ability to turn without endangering other vessels.

I question your responses and ask you how freaking hard is it to miss TWO BILLBOARD SIZED OBJECTS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU? And why the hell would anyone even think any of that is "irrelevant"? At first sighting any vessel approaching MUST at least assess whether the two vessels are crossing and then ask themselves if those vessels are under power or sail in order to determine the hierarchy of which vessel is higher and which is lower. In this instance the powerboat could not tell if we were under sail or power until we came into view but CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that at least he had two vessels ahead and that both of them were stand-on if crossing (both vessels are to his starboard moving to his port), OR he was to pass to their port side if he was entering the harbor.

Or is there something in that situation that you still don't understand?

I'm sorry if you (or anyone else) think I'm being overly dramatic here but you continually try to assess what I laid out by telling me what I'm saying isn't necessary and then ask stupid questions that are clearly answered in the original post.

And, again, I'm not trying to point fingers. I think we all understand that the powerboat operator was a jerk for doing what he did. What I wanted to know is whether "the rules" are in fact "the rules", or just some sort of "gotcha" that is applied after the fact to offenders after something actually happens.

I can easily see a scenario under COLREGS where all 3 vessels would be held equally responsible if all of us had collided with each other, the dredging thingy, or run aground, or any combination thereof. I say this because one can always Monday-morning-quarterback any accident by saying what they "should have done..." and ignoring everything else.

Which is why I'm asking, is that the intent of the COLREGS? To hoist us by our own petards after the fact?

[Montanan]

I perceive that harbor entrance to be a narrow channel.

The COLREG rule for narrow channels is copied below [highlights added for emphasis associated with the described incident.

INTERNATIONAL— Steering and Sailing Rules

Rule 9
Narrow Channels

(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not
impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other
vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.
(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing
impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such
channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
(e) (i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can take place only if the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the
vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(i). The vessel to be overtaken
shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound
the signals prescribed in Rule 34(d).
(ii) This Rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation
under Rule 13.
(f) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a narrow channel or fairway where
other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and shall sound the appropriate signal
prescribed in Rule 34(e).
(g) Any vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid anchoring in a narrow channel.