Yet another COLREGS situation

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I don't get you at all.

The main sails on TWO vessels were UP and VISIBLE over the jetty, thereby indicating to anyone approaching that the harbor mouth was occupied by outbound traffic in an area where there was restricted maneuverability, for multiple reasons, thereby eliminating the ability to turn without endangering other vessels.

I question your responses and ask you how freaking hard is it to miss TWO BILLBOARD SIZED OBJECTS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU? And why the hell would anyone even think any of that is "irrelevant"? At first sighting any vessel approaching MUST at least assess whether the two vessels are crossing and then ask themselves if those vessels are under power or sail in order to determine the hierarchy of which vessel is higher and which is lower. In this instance the powerboat could not tell if we were under sail or power until we came into view but CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that at least he had two vessels ahead and that both of them were stand-on if crossing (both vessels are to his starboard moving to his port), OR he was to pass to their port side if he was entering the harbor.

Or is there something in that situation that you still don't understand?

I'm sorry if you (or anyone else) think I'm being overly dramatic here but you continually try to assess what I laid out by telling me what I'm saying isn't necessary and then ask stupid questions that are clearly answered in the original post.

And, again, I'm not trying to point fingers. I think we all understand that the powerboat operator was a jerk for doing what he did. What I wanted to know is whether "the rules" are in fact "the rules", or just some sort of "gotcha" that is applied after the fact to offenders after something actually happens.

I can easily see a scenario under COLREGS where all 3 vessels would be held equally responsible if all of us had collided with each other, the dredging thingy, or run aground, or any combination thereof. I say this because one can always Monday-morning-quarterback any accident by saying what they "should have done..." and ignoring everything else.

Which is why I'm asking, is that the intent of the COLREGS? To hoist us by our own petards after the fact?

No, COLREGS are not there to hoist us by our own petards after the fact anymore than are stop signs on a street. COLREGS are there to provide standard procedures for actions to be taken (or not) in the vast majority of closing situations between vessels. Only AFTER an accident has happened can or will they they be used to assess and assign fault. Their primary purpose is to avoid accidents in the first place.

[Montanan]

And then there be the sound and light signals.

Annex I to these Regulations

INTERNATIONAL— Sound and Light Signals

Rule 34
Maneuvering and Warning Signals

(a) When vessels are in sight of one another, a power-driven vessel underway, when maneuvering as authorized or required by these Rules, shall indicate that maneuver by the following signals on her whistle:
− one short blast to mean “I am altering my course to starboard”;
− two short blasts to mean “I am altering my course to port”;
− three short blasts to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”.
(b) Any vessel may supplement the whistle signals prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule by light signals, repeated as appropriate, while the maneuver is being carried
out:
(i) these light signals shall have the following significance:
− one flash to mean “I am altering my course to starboard”;
− two flashes to mean “I am altering my course to port”;
− three flashes to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”;
(ii) the duration of each flash shall be about one second, the interval between
flashes shall be about one second, and the interval between successive signals shall be not less than ten seconds;
(iii) the light used for this signal shall, if fitted, be an all-round white light,
visible at a minimum range of 5 miles, and shall comply with the provisions of
.
(c) When in sight of one another in a narrow channel or fairway:
(i) a vessel intending to overtake another shall in compliance with Rule 9(e)(i)
indicate her intention by the following signals on her whistle:
− two prolonged blasts followed by one short blast to mean “I intend to
overtake you on your starboard side”;
− two prolonged blasts followed by two short blasts to mean “I intend to
overtake you on your port side”.
(ii) the vessel about to be overtaken when acting in accordance with Rule 9(e)(i)
shall indicate her agreement by the following signal on her whistle:
− one prolonged, one short, one prolonged and one short blast, in that order.


—INLAND— Sound and Light Signals

Rule 34
Maneuvering and Warning Signals
§ 83.34
(a) When power-driven vessels are in sight of one another and meeting or
crossing at a distance within half a mile of each other, each vessel underway,
when maneuvering as authorized or required by these Rules:
(i) Shall indicate that maneuver by the following signals on her whistle:
(1) One short blast to mean “I intend to leave you on my port side”;
(2) Two short blasts to mean “I intend to leave you on my starboard
side”; and
(3) Three short blasts to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”.
(ii) Upon hearing the one or two blast signal of the other shall, if in
agreement, sound the same whistle signal and take the steps necessary to
effect a safe passing. If, however, from any cause, the vessel doubts the
safety of the proposed maneuver, she shall sound the danger signal
specified in paragraph (d) of this Rule and each vessel shall take
appropriate precautionary action until a safe passing agreement is made.
(b) A vessel may supplement the whistle signals prescribed in paragraph (a) of this
Rule by light signals:
(i) These signals shall have the following significance:
(1) One flash to mean “I intend to leave you on my port side”;
(2) Two flashes to mean “I intend to leave you on my starboard side”;
(3) Three flashes to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”;
(ii) The duration of each flash shall be about 1 second; and
(iii) The light used for this signal shall, if fitted, be one all-round white or
yellow light, visible at a minimum range of 2 miles, synchronized with the
whistle, and shall comply with the provisions of Annex I to these Rules (33
CFR part 84).

(c) When in sight of one another:
(i) A power-driven vessel intending to overtake another power-driven vessel
shall indicate her intention by the following signals on her whistle:
(1) One short blast to mean “I intend to overtake you on your starboard
side”;
(2) Two short blasts to mean “I intend to overtake you on your port
side”; and
(ii) The power-driven vessel about to be overtaken shall, if in agreement,
sound a similar sound signal. If in doubt she shall sound the danger signal
prescribed in paragraph (d) of this Rule.

(d) When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. Such signal may be supplemented by a light signal of at least five short and rapid flashes.

(e) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall sound one
prolonged blast. Such signal shall be answered with a prolonged blast by any approaching vessel that may be within hearing around the bend or behind the intervening obstruction.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I have joined in the discussion of the 2 most recent threads on this subject, but would like some input on another situation that recently happened to me.

Facts:

Channel Islands Harbor in California has a "T" shaped harbor mouth. You can only exit from the harbor to the north or south because there is a breakwater across the mouth of the harbor.

There are currently dredging operations going on with some sort of large discharge outlet occupying the north entrance to the harbor. Some traffic can/does go through but most traffic is currently using the south entrance to avoid the discharge apparatus.

There are piled rock jetty's on each side of the harbor leading toward the breakwater which limit visibility for smaller craft to the right/left as they leave the harbor.



Situation:

I'm a new sailor taking lessons in a Catalina 22. We were motoring with the main up toward the harbor exit with plans on taking the south exit as usual. I had an overtaking sailboat behind, also motoring with the main up. The tide was out making the channel narrower than at any other water level so I was staying toward the center of the channel for both keel clearance and to avoid the discharge thingy to my starboard that was noisily spraying water.

A non commercial motor vessel, approx 1/8 mile outside the harbor, was approaching the harbor entrance at a fairly fast speed. I estimate maybe 15 knots or so but I'm not positive of that, just that it was a lot faster than I was going. He was to my port side. His boat was between 30 and 40 feet long.


What happened:

The motor vessel to my port passed across my bow, went between me and the breakwater then turned to pass between me and the discharge unit, and then threaded the needle between me and the overtaking sailboat behind.

I enjoyed the thrill ride of his wake as we bounced through it.


Analysis:

This turned out to be a "2 motor vessels crossing" situation but should have been a "2 vessels approaching head on" situation. I was to his starboard and was, under the rules for either situation, the stand on vessel. Giving way would have required that I either turn to starboard, potentially cutting off the overtaking sailboat behind me and/or grounding on the side of the channel or hitting the discharge thingy. Turning to port, into the crossing motor vessel would have potentially resulted in a head on collision.

My status as a motor vessel would have been unable to have been determined by the power boat early on because of the jetty blocking his view. However my main was up and that was above the height of the jetty and should have been visible to the power boat as I approached the harbor mouth. The sailboat behind me was also motoring with his main up and that boat was at least 30 feet or so long with a taller mast. Both of our sails should have been visible over the top of the jetty. Our propulsion status from his point of view would at that time have been either sail powered or undetermined.

There was sufficient depth and room for the powerboat to pass on my port side as he entered the harbor. It might have been tight, but I'm absolutely positive he could have done it with several feet to spare between his boat and mine. We were, at minimum, 30 - 40 feet away from the jetty on his side. I would like to say there was 40 - 50 feet between us and the jetty but can't be sure of that after the fact. The jetty slope is fairly steep and there would be 3 - 4 feet of clear depth as close as 10 feet away even at low tide.

All I could do at the moment the power boat decided to cross my bow was stand on until I had enough room to steer to port and pass behind his stern. I have no idea if the sailboat behind me said unkind words out loud or not.


The dilemma and need for advice:

I'm not really concerned about who was right, and who was wrong, I was the stand-on vessel and doing my part under the rules although I only know this after reflection - I did not know this at the moment. Yet I keep thinking about it and wondering if I did the right thing. As a noob I don't have the automatic reaction speed to act quickly when things get crazy. What actually happened was that I froze for about a minute, and then turned to port after he was out of my way.

Which now raises the dilemma; can I trust that other mariners will act according to the COLREGS or is it total anarchy out there? And, if it's anarchy, then is the only real purpose of the COLREGS nothing more than a device used to assign blame after the fact?

Use commonsense, there are any no. of A-holes out there.

[Kamen]

But how did the tonnage of the vessels involved compare? Were any of the vessels up-armored? Any heavy weapons on any of them? Did the skippers know the secret VHF slang? Those things decide who has right of way.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by George DuBose

I also am a firm believer in "size matters" and stay out of the way of "big guys" no matter who has ROW.

Good thing the colregs aren't an election, you'd win.

Originally Posted by George DuBose

I have often considered carrying a loaded paintball gun and decorating boats being operated by clowns.

Maybe you think that's funny. I don't.


You will not educate them. They don't care what you think. All you will do is erode whatever culture of mutual respect still exists on the water.

[sailor_ed]

Originally Posted by NorthCoastJoe

Sounds like the incoming boat was too fast for conditions.

My thought about motoring with mains up, did you have your black cone flying?
I actually use mine and the anchor ball too.

Correct me if I am mistaken but steaming cones are not required on small sailing vessels. And using a ball in addition would be confusing and ill advised IMHO.



As regards rules, we all do the best we can with our best knowledge of the rules but the professionals I know who have been on the water many years admit that sailing is sometimes, through errors in judgement, a "contact sport". Be courteous, think ahead, use the vhf often and early, and you will avoid a lot of misery.


Ed

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Large powerboat wakes are a common problem. Live with it. Don’t get upset – its like getting upset at the sun for rising in the morning. The drivers (they aren’t seamen) of these boats NEVER look behind to see the mayhem they are causing. They are complete pigs. When you see it coming, loudly shout out “WASH” to warn crew down below who will otherwise be completely unaware. Always.

Powerboat wakes are a problem, yes. I think some nuance in understanding is called for. I do not believe that all powerboat drivers are complete pigs and I think it is useful to understand their mindset.

1. There are some powerboat operators who are simply ignorant. They do not understand how much of a wake their boat makes. They do not know that speeds just below plane make it worse. They do not know how the wake affects other boats, or how it affects the shoreline.
2. There are many powerboat operators who believe that they have a right to operate their boat the way it is designed to be operated as long as they do not compromise the safety of other boats. They do not believe they have a responsibility to allow other boats to have a comfortable or pleasant boating experience, or at least, believe that this has to be balanced against their own wishes to operate their boat at speed.
   
   Generally, boaters following this line of reasoning believe that smaller wake-sensitive craft should carry on their activities in smaller bodies of water where the operation of large boats is not feasible.
3. There are some usually courteous powerboat operators who end up waking other boats due to a lack of practical (to them) alternatives as when they are going through a narrow channel on the way from point A to point B, and would have to drop off plane for various lengthy stretches of water to avoid waking anyone. In some cases they are trying to outrun weather, darkness, make a bridge opening, etc.

Having the sails up (and board down if applicable) dramatically reduces the effect of powerboat wakes, enough so to be a good reason to motor sail even in situations where it doesn't do much good propulsion-wise.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by sailor_ed

Correct me if I am mistaken but steaming cones are not required on small sailing vessels.

You are mistaken.

Rule 25 (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.


No mention anywhere of vessel size.

[NorthCoastJoe]

Originally Posted by sailor_ed

Correct me if I am mistaken but steaming cones are not required on small sailing vessels. And using a ball in addition would be confusing and ill advised IMHO.

Ed

I guess I need to spell it out clearly. I thought it was obvious that they are used at the right time.

Cone flying when motor sailing.

Ball flying when anchored.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by StuM

You are mistaken.

Rule 25 (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.


No mention anywhere of vessel size.

In Canada there is a specific modification to COLREGs as to inland and protected waterways which exempts boats that have a length below a specific dimension.

COLREGs specify the size of the day shapes and for smaller vessels the size can be proportionally smaller; thus one's bath tub boat can have a downsized signal when you are practicing compliance with the rules while soaking.

—INTERNATIONAL— Annex I

6. Shapes
(a) Shapes shall be black and of the following sizes:
(i) a ball shall have a diameter of not less than 0.6 meter;
(ii) a cone shall have a base diameter of not less than 0.6 meter and a
height equal to its diameter;
(iii)a cylinder shall have a diameter of at least 0.6 meter and a height of
twice its diameter;
(iv)a diamond shape shall consist of two cones as defined in (ii) above
having a common base.
(b) The vertical distance between shapes shall be at least 1.5 meter.
(c) In a vessel of less than 20 meters in length shapes of lesser dimensions but commensurate with the size of the vessel may be used and the distance apart may be correspondingly reduced.

[Clivevon]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Powerboat wakes are a problem, yes. I think some nuance in understanding is called for. I do not believe that all powerboat drivers are complete pigs and I think it is useful to understand their mindset.

1. There are some powerboat operators who are simply ignorant. They do not understand how much of a wake their boat makes. They do not know that speeds just below plane make it worse. They do not know how the wake affects other boats, or how it affects the shoreline.
2. There are many powerboat operators who believe that they have a right to operate their boat the way it is designed to be operated as long as they do not compromise the safety of other boats. They do not believe they have a responsibility to allow other boats to have a comfortable or pleasant boating experience, or at least, believe that this has to be balanced against their own wishes to operate their boat at speed.
   
   Generally, boaters following this line of reasoning believe that smaller wake-sensitive craft should carry on their activities in smaller bodies of water where the operation of large boats is not feasible.
3. There are some usually courteous powerboat operators who end up waking other boats due to a lack of practical (to them) alternatives as when they are going through a narrow channel on the way from point A to point B, and would have to drop off plane for various lengthy stretches of water to avoid waking anyone. In some cases they are trying to outrun weather, darkness, make a bridge opening, etc.

Having the sails up (and board down if applicable) dramatically reduces the effect of powerboat wakes, enough so to be a good reason to motor sail even in situations where it doesn't do much good propulsion-wise.

You are right - pigs was a bit strong - I apologise. I dont think all powerboat drivers are ignorant at all, but many of them are. I would include myself 50 years ago as the proud owner of my first boat, used for sea angling 10 miles out of Whitby in the North Sea. I look back now & shudder a bit, although as far as I am aware I was always a courteous boat user.

I am complaining about all those who just come too close for no reason except they cannot be bothered to tweak their course a bit in clear water to pass say 100 yards off instead of 50 foot. Sometimes less. One 40 footer overtook me at 20 knots within 6 feet. As in six feet. 4 people on the fly bridge. Another 20 foot rib overtook at speed & instantly dodged under my bow so his huge outboard passed UNDER my anchor in its bow roller. In neither case was there any apparent reason except idiocy, lunacy or maybe just a misjudgement on their parts. They missed me, didn't they?

Being affected by wash sufficiently to roll my 16000 pound (when empty) deep sea sailing boat with its 7500 pound 6 feet cast iron long fin keel (no board to put down) with its sails up (tender she is not) happens every time we go out into the Solent. No problem, we deal with it. We dont expect it not too happen. Live & let live. just realise that safety is an issue - someone below could be cooking or pouring boiling water, or in some other delicate situation, on a calm day when suddenly we get hit by a wake. Hence the automatic shout of "WASH" to warn the crew below. Dunno why powerboaters think they keep hearing that, but its not aimed at them at all.

[Montanan]

Well let's hope that the new sailing cargo ships will be hoisting their steaming cones and adjusting their AIS Navigation Status as to the change in status of propulsion of the vessel [and perhaps as to vessel type, cargo / sailing].

Presently only Class A transmitters use the Navigation Status. Specifically as to this subject matter: Nav Status 0 = underway on engine, 8 = underway on sails.


In order to meet the IMO emissions reduction targets there will be more and more sail powered, and sailpower assisted ships, some with either rotor sails and others with more traditional sails.

By way of example, French shipping line Neoline, sail and motor assist vessels first entering service in 2023.

Michelin Commits to Shipping Tires on Sail-Powered Cargo Ships

https://gcaptain.com/michelin-commit...eid=5626ef2c30

"The two pilot ships will be 136-meter long and have capacity of 500 cars and 280 containers. With 4,200 square meters of sail area and engine assist, Neoline believes it can achieve a speed of at least 11 knots to keep with its biweekly service schedule while also achieving verified bunker fuel savings."

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

. . . I dont think all powerboat drivers are ignorant at all, but many of them are.

. . .

Being affected by wash sufficiently to roll my 16000 pound (when empty) deep sea sailing boat with its 7500 pound 6 feet cast iron long fin keel (no board to put down) with its sails up (tender she is not) happens every time we go out into the Solent. No problem, we deal with it. We dont expect it not too happen. Live & let live. just realise that safety is an issue - someone below could be cooking or pouring boiling water, or in some other delicate situation, on a calm day when suddenly we get hit by a wake. Hence the automatic shout of "WASH" to warn the crew below. Dunno why powerboaters think they keep hearing that, but its not aimed at them at all.

Whether operating in a no-wake zone or not, a vessel is responsible for any injury or damage caused by its wake; the wake of a vessel is consider an extension of the vessel itself.

Under maritime law, damage caused by your wake is treated exactly the same way as damage caused by a physical collision or allision of the vessel without regard to how distant such wake effect hazard occurs.

Nowhere in the Inland Rules of Navigation will you find any mention of a duty for recreational vessels to control their wakes. Still,vessels are not saved from civil liability or criminal penalty by the lack of an explicit rule.

Courts have ruled that when a vessel's wake collides with another vessel and causes damage, Rule (6) of the Inland Rules applies. This rule provides that each vessel "shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision." The courts read the word "collision" to include both a collision with a vessel's hull and a collision with its wake.

And courts have used the catch-all rule, Rule 2(b) of the Inland rules, to hold operators liable for their wake. Rule 2(b) provides that "due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances ... which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger." As courts read this rule, an operator of a vessel is required to do anything and everything to prevent a collision (including a collision with a vessel's wake).

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by StuM

You are mistaken.

Rule 25 (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.


No mention anywhere of vessel size.

Stu, if I'm not mistaken once machinery is in play the vessel is no longer considered a sailing vessel. Do any small vessels display day time displays. It may vary from country to country? I've never seen small draggers with nets it the water with them.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Stu, if I'm not mistaken once machinery is in play the vessel is no longer considered a sailing vessel. Do any small vessels display day time displays. It may vary from country to country? I've never seen small draggers with nets it the water with them.

General Definitions
For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:
(a) The word vessel includes every description of water craft, including nondisplacement craft, WIG craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
(b) The term power-driven vessel means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
(d) The term vessel engaged in fishing means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.


—INTERNATIONAL— Lights and Shapes

Rule 26
Fishing Vessels

(a) A vessel engaged in fishing, whether underway or at anchor, shall exhibit
only the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.
(b) A vessel when engaged in trawling, by which is meant the dragging
through the water of a dredge net or other apparatus used as a fishing appliance, shall exhibit:
(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being green and the
lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with their apexes together
in a vertical line one above the other;
(ii) a masthead light abaft of and higher than the all-round green light; a
vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such
a light but may do so;
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights
prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.

The first image below applies to fishing vessels engaged in trawling and making way of less than 50 meters in length. Same for Inland

The second image below applies to fishing vessels engaged in trawling and making way of 50 meters or larger in length. Same for Inland