A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

[model 10]

Some of us can see past the beautiful lines and all that wood.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

A beautiful full keel.

Yes, beautiful but not very efficient. I prefer beautiful and efficient

[bellubentu]

I think that one of the best boat is Liberty 458. Superbe craftmanship of interiors and very roomy. Full keel with "cut away" (Doug Peterson design, the same of Kelly-Peterson 44). LOA 45'8'' , LWL 40'4''

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by bellubentu

I think that one of the best boat is Liberty 458. Superbe craftmanship of interiors and very roomy. Full keel with "cut away" (Doug Peterson design, the same of Kelly-Peterson 44). LOA 45'8'' , LWL 40'4''

+1 for the Liberty 458. We have hull 12. Great interiors. Tons of storage and sails well.

Probably not strictly a full keel. More of a large fin keel with a gentle transition to the hull and skeg hung rudder.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[letsgetsailing3]

I guess this is the inevitable part of the discussion where everyone shamelessly plugs the boat they currently own, especially if they're getting ready to sell theirs!

[Yachtbuilder]

Superb post, John!


I am a retired yachtbuilder who always favored the more classic designs (I'm not talking about the slow, tubby things). One of my favorites has always been the lovely Bermuda 40. They epitomize the classic yacht in my view. In fact Hinkley created some of my most favorite boats, as has Bob Perry (I have sailed the Norseman 447 and it is an exciting boat in many ways). Performance is an important factor in a cruising boat. The Bermuda 40 is an example of the best of both worlds, IMHO.


Congrats on that beautiful Catalina 47. I knew Frank Butler and had been through their Woodland Hills facility years ago (I used to sell them). He produced the "best bang for the buck" of any of the production builders. I always thought of the Catalina line as a coastal cruising and all around "family fun" boat, but this 47 looks like a new direction for Catalina. I like it!


Fair winds and following seas,


Garry Powell
Portland, Or.

[Cheechako]

Yeah... acquaintances I met in the Caribe had an old Bermuda 40... what a lovely boat..

[HankOnthewater]

I stumbled on this thread, or tripped over it rather awhile ago, as it is large with an odd 400+ posts. The reason was that I was looking for comments or views on “Mobjack”, the search returned this thread.

Mpricer (Mark) who started this thread (OP=Original Poster) has been absent for 10 months. Not sure if his questions has been answered or not. However most threads benefit many other readers, not just the OP. It is for that reason that it may be wise to regroup, recap, for those who are considering long keel cruising boats, their benefits and if there are any negative aspects, or Mpricer put it.

Those who waded through all the posts, certainly would have noticed that there were many very good comments, many accolades from owners praising their own boats, even more distractions and sidetracks, and then some terse language between some posters.

First some facts as they have been mentioned:
1. Very few long-keeled yachts are been built commercially, except for maybe some on-offs. Island Packet yachts (IP) are an exception.
2. Over the last 30-40 years or so none of the racing boats have long keels
3. Insuring cruising boats with long keels is not cheaper (disclaimer: I have not checked this myself)
4. Old long keel boat do not win races now (meaning complete course in fastest time), except on handicap.

Advantages of long keel boats:
1. Most (but certainly not all!) track well and are made easy to selfsteer
2. Rudder and prop are well protected:
a. When hitting something, damage is often limited therefore damage to keel, rudder and prop are likely to be less when hitting something
b. When going over craypot ropes, The long keeled yacht does just that: going over, little or no chance getting caught on keel, prop or rudder
3. Most of the time there are deep bilges that can take some water before it becomes a problem
4. When drying out, might be relatively easy to keep the mast vertical (that is compared with a narrow/deep fin keel)

Disadvantages of long keel boats:
1. For approx. the same displacement and length: they have more wetted surface
a. If sail plan is similar, boats with long keel will be slower
b. Needs a little more antifoul
2. Difficult to manoeuvre
a. In marinas etc is lot more difficult, including going astern
b. Racing around the buoy, ie tacking takes a lot more time and effort

I believe that is all there is.

All the remainder of the arguments are subjectives or are introducing more variables, and these arguments would apply to all boats not just to long keelers. For instance:
1. Heavy: most older boats are built heavy, many older boats have long keels, therefore old boats with long keels tend to have a largish displacement/length ratio; an advantage could be:
a. the motion is more seakindly
b. one can load more gear on such yacht, without influencing the performance too much (hehehe, one goes from ‘slow’ to ‘a bit slower’)
2. Narrow waist: Many older long-keel boats were narrowish, therefore
a. initial stability is low, boat is tender, and not easy to live on board whilst sailing. Has anyone sailed a Herresfoff 53 ft Marco Polo? If you have, you will know what it is like….. however at the same time boats like that sail really well, just not comfortable when heeled that much.
b. not that much living space
3. Narrow ends: many older long-keelboats had narrow ends, therefore restricting usable living or storage space
4. Draft: I don’t think it was mentioned in this thread as such, but long keelers have generally a shallower draft compared with a fin keeler and shallow craft yachts don’t go as well to windward.
5. Price: generally long keelers are all older or/and homebuilt therefore cheaper

Many posts were spent on how well (or not) yachts could be loaded for cruising, but no-one mentioned any concrete figures. I would say that for 2 on board a 40ft plus boat should be able to carry 3500 kg or nearly 7000 lbs of stores, equipment and liquids, see attachment for that. That includes, fuel, water, genset, liferaft, dinghy outboard, groundtackle etc etc. If your requirements are different than I listed in the spreadsheet, please alter the figures to suit your purpose or boat.
So when you see a boat, fin or long keeled one, check how that one would go with such weight on board.
Note: if 3500 kg seems a lot to you, I travel lighter when camping using my pushbike or seakayak for transport, so I know how to travel light as well.

There is no doubt that many long keel sailboats from the 60s, 70s and even 80s were and still are superb sailing yachts and classic beauties. Freya 39 and Baba 40 come to mind. However there are just as many or even more long keelers that may sail not as well. And with "sailing well" I mean a real joy to sail, easily to trim, light on the helm, forgiving, not necessarily fast.

Disclaimer: I am not naval architect, nor a world cruiser, but lived on board for 15 years, my longest passage was 700 Nm, sail regularly 200-500 Nm in the Indian and Southern Ocean, but I have sailed many heavy long keelers, raced (and still do race) on many fin keelers, go out in wild weather in sea rescue boats (hmmm, have then 500 or 800 HP at my disposal), sailed cruising cats and own a ferro long-keeler. Yes I know, being ferrro AND having a long keel means double demerit points for speed.

I am looking to upgrade my yacht. Generally looking at longish-fin-keelers, although just a Herreshoff Mobjack ketch caught my attention. Let me re-read what I just wrote……

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by HankOnthewater

Over the last 30-40 years or so none of the racing boats have long keels

You can make that 80-90 years. except where class rules dictate otherwhise.

Yacht designers have know for a long time what makes a fast boat. But their customers were often conservative. If you want to see what happens when a talented designer gets to create boats for an unprejudiced customer look at Ricus Van Der Stadt's early designs for Cees Bruynzeel. He designed the first planing ULDB racers, with flat bottoms, fin keels and spade rudders in the 50ies. The pionier 9, the first production GRP sailboat in Europe had also a (longish) fin keel and a spade rudder. The "Valk" of which whole fleets are sailing in the Netherlands dates from 39...

Boat builders built what the market demands, and the market has been slow catching up...

initial stability is low, boat is tender, and not easy to live on board whilst sailing. Has anyone sailed a Herreshoff 53 ft Marco Polo? If you have, you will know what it is like…..

Matter of fact I have. But that was a long time ago. I remember seeing a frame being replaced on it. Learned me that a wooden boat is mostly work, with a bit of sailing thrown in.
I wonder where "Ila Ola" is now...

[JJ77]

"I am looking to upgrade my yacht. Generally looking at longish-fin-keelers"


@Hank;koopmans sr. has designed a bunch of fullkeelers which are still being built today,hutting yachts is one of them.


centre boarentre board | Dick Koopmans Jachtontwerper Yachtdesign


they also come without centre board.




His site also has a page giving pros and cons of several keel types;
http://www.dickkoopmans.nl/uw_jacht/type_vergelijk.html





regards,
JJ

[HankOnthewater]

@KVB

Boat builders built what the market demands, and the market has been slow catching up...

Quote:
initial stability is low, boat is tender, and not easy to live on board whilst sailing. Has anyone sailed a Herreshoff 53 ft Marco Polo? If you have, you will know what it is like…..
Matter of fact I have. But that was a long time ago. I remember seeing a frame being replaced on it. Learned me that a wooden boat is mostly work, with a bit of sailing thrown in.
I wonder where "Ila Ola" is now...

I think OleOla was for sale or a give-away 3 years ago in Northern Queensland Australia.
There is a Marco Polo 53 locally, and then there was a 2nd one here also (on the west cost of WA) recently sold, not sure where that went to.

@KVB
Funny that you mentioned VanderStadt and Bruynzeel, I hail from that part of the world and was taught sailing on a "Valk".

@JJ77
Again funny that, you also mentioned a designer and builder from the same place!! As a matter of fact I looked at an aluminium Koopman's designed yacht a few weeks ago: nice hull, but everything needed repairing or replacing.
Thank you for the link to "Koopmans", and it compares the characteristics of the various type of keels in a simple and good kind of way.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by HankOnthewater

@KVB
I think OleOla was for sale or a give-away 3 years ago in Northern Queensland Australia.

I heard about that. I was going to look for it last time I was down under (two years ago) but my research went dead.
Pity. It was a cool boat.

@KVB
Funny that you mentioned VanderStadt and Bruynzeel, I hail from that part of the world and was taught sailing on a "Valk".

I hail from the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium. Lived in the Netherlands for 9 years, and now live in Switzerland. When i was living in Holland we used to go sailing on the "Kaag", where you can rent Valken. I also took part in races, including one memorable one in Heeg where we started by breaking the ice in the harbor, and ended kapsizing three Valken at the same time, mine included. The water was freezing...

i still have a soft spot for plywood boats. As a teenager I sailed with the French sailing schhol "Les Glenans" on simple plywood cruisers designed by the famous Jean-Jacques Herbulot. Another genius who jumped at every opportunity to use new material and technology to make boats that sailed better.

When I get around to sail more I want to buy a proper yacht. Probably will end up with an RM. First need to get the company ready to be sold...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by HankOnthewater

...

Advantages of long keel boats:
1. Most (but certainly not all!) track well and are made easy to selfsteer
2. Rudder and prop are well protected:
a. When hitting something, damage is often limited therefore damage to keel, rudder and prop are likely to be less when hitting something
b. When going over craypot ropes, The long keeled yacht does just that: going over, little or no chance getting caught on keel, prop or rudder
3. Most of the time there are deep bilges that can take some water before it becomes a problem
4. When drying out, might be relatively easy to keep the mast vertical (that is compared with a narrow/deep fin keel)

Disadvantages of long keel boats:
1. For approx. the same displacement and length: they have more wetted surface
a. If sail plan is similar, boats with long keel will be slower
b. Needs a little more antifoul
2. Difficult to manoeuvre
a. In marinas etc is lot more difficult, including going astern
b. Racing around the buoy, ie tacking takes a lot more time and effort

I believe that is all there is.

.…

You can add as disadvantages the higher CG due to the difficulty in having a big draft with all the ballast at the end of it on a full keel (if you have a big draft on a full keel boat you will increase hugely the wet surface). A higher CG for the same weight means less stability, less power, less ability to carry sail and a slower boat.

Also you mention on your post the lower price of the full keel boats (because they are old) but looking at advantages/disadvantages you have to consider the designs by themselves, as if they were built now and than it is quite the opposite, full keel boats are more expensive to build (if done well).

[Yachtbuilder]

KVB:

Glad to see that great Yacht Designer's name mentioned on this forum. I have always been a fan of E.G. Van der Stadt. At the risk of having rocks thrown at me, I will say that my "taste" (as a former builder) leans towards his older designs such as Glass Slipper. In my mind, it looks like what a cruising boat is supposed to look like. Call me a hopeless romantic, and you would be right. I share the philosophy of Arthur Beiser (The Proper Yacht), that a major element of Yacht Design should be beauty. There are trade-offs of course, as there are in everything.

And what can be more beautiful than a William Fife Schooner under sail. I have been aboard one of those, ASTOR, when it was at moored in Ala Wai Yacht Harbor. Having said all this, I am also a fan of Bob Perry's work, primarily because they sail very well and are still handsome boats. It takes a good N.A. to accomplish that! When I watched what was competing in the most recent America's Cup, I shuddered. Yup, Archie, the "Age of Elegance" is truly gone!

Cheers,

Garry Powell
Landlocked in Oregon

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by bellubentu

I think that one of the best boat is Liberty 458. Superbe craftmanship of interiors and very roomy. Full keel with "cut away" (Doug Peterson design, the same of Kelly-Peterson 44). LOA 45'8'' , LWL 40'4''

I have to admit that the Liberty 458 is just stunning



Stance Works - The Liberty Walk Ferrari 458