Boat Ownership Questions

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Traveler2012

Does anyone have any helpful information or know of any websites that might be able to explain the process?

Plenty of threads on CF on the subject, particularly about Aussies doing the same.....so actually worth a search!..........whether it makes sense, inlcuding financially is a seperate matter!...................my take is that mostly only makes sense if you actually want to spend extended time abroad before bringing boat to Oz (and saves heading off from Oz first!) and for those who bring a boat home ASAP it is as much about the increased choice and availability as any great cash saving. Whether any money is made by buying abroad will probably be down as much to what is bought (in model and condition), what happens on delivery and the costs of that - plus exchange rates and market conditions (on each side!).....and probably a tad of self delusion!, as until boat is actually sold won't know what it is actually worth (to someone else).

In regards to boat reg - IIRC (but check!), an Aussie resident can register a boat (as an Australian boat) when it is still abroad and that the Aussie taxes are not payable until it actually arrives in Oz...........unless good reasons not to, then that would be my suggestion (Aussie Passport and Aussie Flag = simple for officialdom to understand, no requirement to be the same and plenty are not - but simple is always a good place to start).

But if you do fancy registering elsewhere, then most places have a residency requirement (and some - like USA - also a passport requirement).......however you can register in own name in Jersey (Red Ensign on the stern and same process as the UK, although a seperate register) as boat Registration open to UK and EU citizens and also to citizens of countries that are members of the Commonweath.

[Sazaisan]

OK. I would like to thank all for the well thought out responses. The reason I was looking at yachtworld which lists mostly boats in Europe is that they seem to be a better value. As an example, a 2003 Bavaria 49 (50 foot) is priced at $116,694. I realize these boats may have their issues but the initial purchase price is attractive. As a result of the responses I also have some other sites and ideas about my boat search. I think I also have the tax question answered, but as one of the first posts said, buy the boat here in the US and this problem goes away. I thnk the electrical system on a European boat could be switched from 220V to 110V relatively easy. Again, as one of the first responses said, get a professional to do it. I am not concerned with the environmentals aspect of the boat I buy, I plan to operate from a slip on the ocean side of Florida, at least for the first couple of years, and then possibly move to Hawaii. I want both heat and AC and will install those options if the boat I buy does not already have them. I didn't get a lot of information regarding the costs associated with boat ownership, but would still like to get any input that you might have. What I was hoping for was input on things like insurance costs, local taxes, etc. I am setting my budget at $150,000. That is the absolute max. This includes purchasing the boat, paying all fees and taxes, outfitting the boat to my personal tastes (things like installing a watermaker, radar, heating and/or AC, solar panel and/or wind generators, washer/dryer, etc). I am looking for something 10 to 15 years old in the 40 to 50 foot range. In addition to yachtworld I am now looking at sailboatlisting.com, boat trader.com and craigslist.com. Any other suggestions? I get most of the abbreviations, but Don't know what "OP" stands for.

[hellosailor]

OP = Ocean Pacific, a manufacturer of sportswear and swimwear.
Or here, "Original Poster" as in the person who started a thread.

Replacing an electrical system may literally mean replacing ALL of the wiring, as what is used for 220 AC or 24DC will not be adequate for 120/12 with higher amperage needs. Pulling wire which often has been glued in or buried is not cheap.

Operating and maintenance costs can be found in older threads, folks have posted them pretty extensively.

The fact that you found one boat at under $130k while others, "right next door" are listed for $230K, should give you a hint that finding "cheaper" boats online doesn't mean very much. Of course, you can spend a grand having it hauled and surveyed before you think about flying over, or spend more than that flying over before you have it hauled, or...either way you're going to spend a lot of money finding out how many boats are how badly misrepresented, even here in the US.

Budget a month with some heavy travel time if you want to look at boats scattered around the world. And remember, some of them would love to find a foreign buyer, who has no idea how local title and fraud laws work.

[goboatingnow]

Replacing an electrical system may literally mean replacing ALL of the wiring, as what is used for 220 AC or 24DC will not be adequate for 120/12 with higher amperage needs. Pulling wire which often has been glued in or buried is not cheap.

No thats not neccessary, if you are prepared to derate the breakers, Do all your outlets need 3K watts rating , of course not. Secondly have a look at the wire size in the target boat, A lot of European Boats will use 2.5mm sq , roughly about 14AWG, theres 20 amps for you at 110Vac,

SO you might have to derate, and for one or two high current circuits - rewire, but its not "replacing ALL of the wiring" Youll also find that insulation, connectors etc on 230VAC is to a higher standard as well.

if you want to look at boats scattered around the world. And remember, some of them would love to find a foreign buyer, who has no idea how local title and fraud laws work.

While there are plenty of "dodgy" places to buy boats, Europe isnt one of them. Fraud and title laws are similar and often stricter then the US. ( after all we've been in boats a VERY long time). The language is the main barrier.

Then of course possession is 9/10 of the law.....!

Yes buying "abroad" is more difficult, The best place to buy a german car is in Germany, similarly with Euro- boats

Dave

[hellosailor]

Dave, why would you even think of "dodgy" places to buy boats? Are there such things? I never called the EU a dodgy place, I just said there are con men and villains to be found all over the world. Some of them will gladly invite a stranger who has no idea of the laws or customs and language barriers, that's all an extra bonus for them and an extra pitfall for the buyer.

As to the best place to buy German cars, my friend's brother in law just commented yesterday that he can buy a Mercedes in the US for LESS than the same car would cost him in Germany. Possibly because the car is being built in both places, and the exchange rate or local costs varies enough to make that happen now. But he'd priced one out, and the old rules (cheaper in Germany) don't apply across the board now.

If you buy a boat in the EU and bring it back to the US, and then find out that there was concealed damage, perhaps the keel fell off (that's happened to some Bavarias, specifically), and no one told you, what are you going to do now? Fly back to the EU to bring your lawsuit, and fly back again every time it goes to court? Or just take your loss, because legal remedies don't always work very well, for anything, an ocean away?

You can argue about how much risk there is, but to say there is no potential for significant extra risk and expense, is simply nonsense. Con men love out-of-towners, they're the finest prey. And we all know how honestly boats are always advertised by brokers. Always.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Sazaisan

OK. I would like to thank all for the well thought out responses. The reason I was looking at yachtworld which lists mostly boats in Europe is that they seem to be a better value. As an example, a 2003 Bavaria 49 (50 foot) is priced at $116,694. I realize these boats may have their issues but the initial purchase price is attractive. As a result of the responses I also have some other sites and ideas about my boat search. I think I also have the tax question answered, but as one of the first posts said, buy the boat here in the US and this problem goes away. I thnk the electrical system on a European boat could be switched from 220V to 110V relatively easy. Again, as one of the first responses said, get a professional to do it. I am not concerned with the environmentals aspect of the boat I buy, I plan to operate from a slip on the ocean side of Florida, at least for the first couple of years, and then possibly move to Hawaii. I want both heat and AC and will install those options if the boat I buy does not already have them. I didn't get a lot of information regarding the costs associated with boat ownership, but would still like to get any input that you might have. What I was hoping for was input on things like insurance costs, local taxes, etc. I am setting my budget at $150,000. That is the absolute max. This includes purchasing the boat, paying all fees and taxes, outfitting the boat to my personal tastes (things like installing a watermaker, radar, heating and/or AC, solar panel and/or wind generators, washer/dryer, etc). I am looking for something 10 to 15 years old in the 40 to 50 foot range. In addition to yachtworld I am now looking at sailboatlisting.com, boat trader.com and craigslist.com. Any other suggestions? I get most of the abbreviations, but Don't know what "OP" stands for.

You will find similar bargains in Florida and you won't incur the cost of moving the boat from Europe to Florida. Fitting out a boat to make a safe Atlantic crossing is going to cost another $10-15K at least, quite apart from the cost of fuel, food and crew. A delivery skipper will cost $300-500 a day for a 25 day trip. Shipping it to Florida via freighter will cost $12-15K when you take into account the cost of de rigging and the re-rigging the boat.

[yamba]

Well they say the grass is allways greener on the other side. Classic example. I'm looking at the same patch of grass, only I'm looking at buying in Florida and trying to figure out the red tape involved in bringing the boat over to the U.K. .Boat prices are way better in the States, and plenty to choose from. Now if I can only figure out the best way 'round taxes, registration, cruising visas and all the rest of it without tripping up, might have a chance to buy the boat before someone else grabs it..

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Dave, why would you even think of "dodgy" places to buy boats? Are there such things? I never called the EU a dodgy place, I just said there are con men and villains to be found all over the world. Some of them will gladly invite a stranger who has no idea of the laws or customs and language barriers, that's all an extra bonus for them and an extra pitfall for the buyer.

As to the best place to buy German cars, my friend's brother in law just commented yesterday that he can buy a Mercedes in the US for LESS than the same car would cost him in Germany. Possibly because the car is being built in both places, and the exchange rate or local costs varies enough to make that happen now. But he'd priced one out, and the old rules (cheaper in Germany) don't apply across the board now.

If you buy a boat in the EU and bring it back to the US, and then find out that there was concealed damage, perhaps the keel fell off (that's happened to some Bavarias, specifically), and no one told you, what are you going to do now? Fly back to the EU to bring your lawsuit, and fly back again every time it goes to court? Or just take your loss, because legal remedies don't always work very well, for anything, an ocean away?

You can argue about how much risk there is, but to say there is no potential for significant extra risk and expense, is simply nonsense. Con men love out-of-towners, they're the finest prey. And we all know how honestly boats are always advertised by brokers. Always.

I was actually referring to the point that for choice of German car, your best bet is German, equally true of Euro boats. I wasn't making a price comparison. The same is true if I want to buy a long keeled valient type, I'd look in NA. I'm not saying one shouldn't look anywhere or everywhere , bit its simply a matter of numbers. There are far far more Euro boats in Europe then Euro boats in NA. ( well I except given the size of the manufacturers , there are a fair number of Euro boats in NA anyway ). Not withstanding Europe is a far larger sailboat market anyway. For example if I wanted to buy a small sportboat theNA manufacturers dominate the scene.

Dave

[Whaubner]

I apologize for not reading the wisdom of this forum prior to buying our boat in the UK and having it shipped to the US. In our case it was a boat that wasn't available in the US, and it was at a time when the pound was quite favorable to the dollar.

It is not the simplest process and its not cheap but it is certainly doable. People by boats all over the world, people ship boats all over the world.

A few suggestion..

While all of these things are possible to inure out, it pays to have brokers/agents help you along.

1) get a good yacht broker, who is familiar with your specific search criteria, and has executed international transactions.

2) narrow your search, I was able to combine a weekend to the UK, with a business trip. We found the boat and negotiated the detail after one visit.

3) VAT is not an issue if you are going to export the boat. Invoice will be written so its not an issue. If you can find a boat where vat was previously paid in theory It will be cheaper than a boat where VAT was paid.

4) plan on spending a week on survey and sea trials have it Ll lined up before you get there.make sure you understand what is and isn't included in the sea trial. Uk surveyors don't include a valuation, that's a separate fee and activity. If you are using the banks money they will obviously want a valuation.

5) you may need a delivery crew to get the boat to a shipping port. We had to sail from Essex to South Hampton.

6) hire a shipping agent get on a cargo ship. If you can un step the mast the you may be able to ship below deck.otherwise the boAt will be shipped on deck.

7) have the yard prepare the boat for shipping. Securing storing things wrapping stainless winches and stuff to keep the worst of the grit and grime off he. She will show up dirty.

8) don't be in a hurry, container ships have their own schedule your boat will show up some time.

9) get good at wiring money internationally. Most folks don't take credit cards.

10) normal yacht insurance and the shipping company don't cover your boat as cargo. Make sure you get specific coverage.

11) consider what currency you are going to make the purchase. There is elapsed time between offer and close, a volatile currency market can ruin your day. We were able to negotiate the purchase in US dollars.

12) there is a custom import fee for the us. Hire the custom agent save your self the headache.

13) do arrange to pick the boat up yourself off the ship, that was a fun day!

14) 220 volt is it an issue, shore power can be wired to US @50amp. Leave the boat 220. Most Inge you have lie cell phone chargers support 220. Just get a bunch of plug adapters. The things you have that don't support 220 you will discover quickly.
Pick up a tool transformer to run the vacuum cleaner and the drill

Boats exist all over the world, bots are shipped all over the world. When we brought Mahina Kai to Newport she was only the 2nd one in the country. I wouldn't have done it any differently.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Simon-
In many parts of the US, if your diesel mechanic says he'll be there at 10AM, sometimes he shows up by noon. Or two. Travel lift will be ready at 3PM? Oh, no, come back tomorrow we couldn't make it today and it's closing time.

Sadly, same same all over most of the US and most of the trades. The guys who actually know how to pick up a phone (incredibly difficult when everyone has one in their pocket) and say "I'm running late I won't be there until" are few and far between. And all the more deserving of praise for a job "simply" well done.

We may not all work on Island Time, yet, but things are going that way. People don't show up, don't call in, don't complete the work if they do show up...and this passes for normal these days. (sigh)

I noticed the issue you describe with trades here in Florida. I just bought a condo (snowbirding and close to boats), and was solicited at Home Depot to get an A/C tuneup. Yeah, I know they want to sell me a new one, but seeing the existing one is 24 years old, they have a chance, even though it is working find now. Appointment was for Monday morning, or, if they didn't show up, Tuesday.

By Wednesday I phone to ask what happened. "It was a mistake, sorry, we will be there Thursday morning between 9-11". Great, I think, mistakes happen.

No one showed. This is a Home Depot contractor.

The same happened to a friend of mine here who needs some work done on her attic. Three appointments, 2 no shows and one cancellation because the guys kid had a soccer game. Like he didn't know that when the appointment was made?

The lack of professionalism amazes me, especially in an area where supposedly there is high unemployment.

I come from an area where they are screaming to get trades because they are so busy, yet cannot remember once an appointment is made, that the trade would not show up.

Work ethic? To close to da Islands? Touch to pin point.

[wadesmith]

1. Buy in the USA
2. Spend a lot of time choosing the right boat - this is your home, but it's also like a car, in that some brands give you reliable service and reasonable repairs, while others trap you into a situation that will sicken you. Gotta network to find the right answers - go to boat shows, ask questions till you are blue
3. If you are going to live aboard, go for a trial marriage. You may discover that a few weeks is much more fun than 6 months - why spend your precious retirement captured in a situation you don't thoroughly enjoy. Life is too short.
4 If you are interested in buying a fractional share, check our www.yachtsweetestthing or e-mail me at wade@yachtsweetestthing.com

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wadesmith

1. Buy in the USA
2. Spend a lot of time choosing the right boat - this is your home, but it's also like a car, in that some brands give you reliable service and reasonable repairs, while others trap you into a situation that will sicken you. Gotta network to find the right answers - go to boat shows, ask questions till you are blue
3. If you are going to live aboard, go for a trial marriage. You may discover that a few weeks is much more fun than 6 months - why spend your precious retirement captured in a situation you don't thoroughly enjoy. Life is too short.
4 If you are interested in buying a fractional share, check our www.yachtsweetestthing or e-mail me at wade@yachtsweetestthing.com

Let me counter this.

1.Firstly buy wherever you are comfortable.

2. Boats are nothing like cars. They are in essence hand built in relatively small quantities on the back or virtually non existent R&D and partially assembled for other people parts.

So choosing one is a very personal experience, one that cannot be fully answered by " asking questions " first go sailing , build up a view of what's important in a boat FOR YOU.

Ultimately the first boat or the 2nd or the 3rd is never the " right " boat. Eventually you make a choice and live with it.

Fractional ownership is in my view a way of owning a boat you don't care for. Not good


Dave