Buying without a Broker?

[boatsail]

Filling in paperwork is just one small part of the deal. Knowing the contracts, surveys, values, BRINGING CLIENTS TO REALITY, processing, clearing titles, insurance questions, financing questions, how to resolve issues (often times the broker is the only one not acting on emotions). They are just a few basic things.

I sell houses. My job really does not start until we go under contract. Most sellers think that my job is over as the hard part is finding the buyer...Wrong!

[boatsail]

some are good, some are bad, just like anything else.

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by boatsail

Filling in paperwork is just one small part of the deal. Knowing the contracts, surveys, values, BRINGING CLIENTS TO REALITY, processing, clearing titles, insurance questions, financing questions, how to resolve issues (often times the broker is the only one not acting on emotions). They are just a few basic things.

I sell houses. My job really does not start until we go under contract. Most sellers think that my job is over as the hard part is finding the buyer...Wrong!

Couldn't agree more!

[Cheechako]

Some of the Documentation services will provide escrow service. That is your main concern; a good contract that allows you to walk away at no cost (other than costs you incurred during survey , hauling etc) in a specified time perios is most important.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor

A good yacht broker does way more than just fill in paperwork... If it was that easy don't you think there'd be a lot less captains and a lot more yacht brokers?

I haven't noticed any shortage of boat brokers. Have you?

Please fill us in on the "way more" that they do.

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I haven't noticed any shortage of boat brokers. Have you?

Please fill us in on the "way more" that they do.

I would agree there is definitely no shortage of boat brokers, just like there isn't a shortage of six-pack or 100 ton captains trying to play professional captain. What there is though is a shortage of professional yacht brokers who truly understand the process from start to finish, has a pulse on the market, knows how to market a yacht properly, and has a client base that can only come through constant contact with potential buyers. A professional yacht broker doesn't sit on his haunches and wait for a phone call or email on a listing. He actively goes out, searches for clients, and works tirelessly to put potential buyers with sellers.

The single most difficult part of the process is managing expectations of both buyers and sellers.

I personally could not imagine putting a check down for a couple hundred thousand dollars, if not more, and not consult a professional.

I use a broker to manage my retirement fund because at the end of the day he knows a lot more than I do about investment... When I purchased my house I used a real estate agent because at the end of the day he knew more about the housing market than I did... Why so much hate towards Yacht Brokers?

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by boatsail

Filling in paperwork is just one small part of the deal. Knowing the contracts, surveys, values, BRINGING CLIENTS TO REALITY, processing, clearing titles, insurance questions, financing questions, how to resolve issues (often times the broker is the only one not acting on emotions). They are just a few basic things.

I sell houses. My job really does not start until we go under contract. Most sellers think that my job is over as the hard part is finding the buyer...Wrong!

I'm not going to say that a broker isn't an asset in a difficult, contentious sale. They can save a deal, and can make their clients knowledgeable about local rules and contracts.

However, if you have a general agreement between a reasonable buyer and seller, let's review what they're paying their hard-earned 10% for:

Knowing the contracts,
I'll grant you that. Very helpful.

surveys,
The surveyor does this.

values,
Exclusive access to prices in soldboats.com?
The value is determined by the buyer and seller

BRINGING CLIENTS TO REALITY, I've looked at the boat market.
The brokers are falling down on
the job in this category.

processing, What's this???

clearing titles,
Doesn't the title insurance company do this? I don't know how
it works with boats.

insurance questions,
Doesn't the insurance company do this?
financing questions,
Doesn't the mortgage broker do this?

how to resolve issues (often times the broker is the only one not acting on emotions)

------------------

So when you get right down to it, the broker is showing the boat, coordinating the ballet, and keeping things on track for 10% of the value of the contract. Granted, it's nice to have someone with experience handling all this, but 10% of the boat value seems a bit pricey for this service in cases where the buyer and seller find each other on their own.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor

I would agree there is definitely no shortage of boat brokers, just like there isn't a shortage of six-pack or 100 ton captains trying to play professional captain. What there is though is a shortage of professional yacht brokers who truly understand the process from start to finish, has a pulse on the market, knows how to market a yacht properly, and has a client base that can only come through constant contact with potential buyers. A professional yacht broker doesn't sit on his haunches and wait for a phone call or email on a listing. He actively goes out, searches for clients, and works tirelessly to put potential buyers with sellers.

The single most difficult part of the process is managing expectations of both buyers and sellers.

I personally could not imagine putting a check down for a couple hundred thousand dollars, if not more, and not consult a professional.

I use a broker to manage my retirement fund because at the end of the day he knows a lot more than I do about investment... When I purchased my house I used a real estate agent because at the end of the day he knew more about the housing market than I did... Why so much hate towards Yacht Brokers?

Nobody here has professed any hatred for boat brokers. Rather than getting defensive, why not acknowledge that we have a point?

They aren't always needed.

If I were selling a 300K boat, I'd be engaging a good broker. If I already knew the specific boat wanted to purchase, I have to question paying 30K for advice on how to conduct the transaction.

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Nobody here has professed any hatred for boat brokers. Rather than getting defensive, why not acknowledge that we have a point?

They aren't always needed.

If I were selling a 300K boat, I'd be engaging a good broker. If I already knew the specific boat wanted to purchase, I have to question paying 30K for advice on how to conduct the transaction.

I completely agree... I wouldn't use a broker if I was buying a 30k boat. I would definitely hire a good marine surveyor. Didn't mean to come across as defensive, I was being sarcastic and as we know it is hard to get that across sometime.

[Capt Phil]

I've gone both ways on brokers even though I'm fairly knowledgeable having owned about 15 boats from 14 feet to 54 feet, both power and sail. Granted, I only held a 100 ton license but earned a pretty good living on deliveries over 30 years (but that doesn't mean squat to FLLCatsailor, evidently).
If the vessel has a salvage title, get a surveyor with a proven track record on the type of boat you are considering. Experience on the specific make, model and vintage is important. Ask the surveyor for references... a good place to start is with your marine insurance company for recommendations.
As a previous poster mentioned, spend time with the surveyor aboard. What worked for me was spending at least a day alone aboard making a list of questions/concerns then share those with the surveyor while you are both aboard.
Invest in title insurance that includes searches for liens. Get a mechanical inspection that includes an oil analysis, running tests, not just starting and inspection.
Do a little research on the internet to find out what the weak spots might be with the particular boat you are interested in. If you can, spend some time aboard a twin to the one you are looking at. These are just a few suggestions... certain there are many I've missed. Good Luck! Phil

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

(but that doesn't mean squat to FLLCatsailor, evidently).! Phil

Sorry didn't mean to offend.. I was trying to make the point that there are a lot of guys out there that have the ticket,but are not professional captains.

I'm a bit new to the whole forum thing, so I didn't mean to offend...

[Capt Phil]

No Worries, FLLC... to me, a professional is one who not only holds the ticket but also uses it to earn a living. I agree that there are some licensed mariners who I wouldn't be caught with in a rowboat!
Those of us who worked commercially over the years tend to rise to the bait you trolled through the forum... but all good fun!
If it is any consolation, I've been flamed by a few here as well as 86'ed by a couple of moderators which I really deserved so please don't be offended by my comment.
Cheers, Phil

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

No Worries, FLLC... to me, a professional is one who not only holds the ticket but also uses it to earn a living. I agree that there are some licensed mariners who I wouldn't be caught with in a rowboat!
Those of us who worked commercially over the years tend to rise to the bait you trolled through the forum... but all good fun!
If it is any consolation, I've been flamed by a few here as well as 86'ed by a couple of moderators which I really deserved so please don't be offended by my comment.
Cheers, Phil

No offense taken! I don't want to become that guy... If I hadn't decided to go back to college I would still be in the islands running yachts,but now my life has been reduced to lowly yacht broker...jk

[Johnny Cruiser]

re letsgetsailing3

I'm not going to say that a broker isn't an asset in a difficult, contentious sale. They can save a deal, and can make their clients knowledgeable about local rules and contracts. This is spot where broker could be helpful
and earn their money.

However, if you have a general agreement between a reasonable buyer and seller, let's review what they're paying their hard-earned 10% for:

Knowing the contracts, I'll grant you that. Very helpful.
Just last week gave 2 brokers a semi-custom yard's standard contract and asked them to review for changes that they would recommend if they were to represent me in this deal. 1 had none so he was gone and other glossed over 2 minor ones yet I had 32 items that I changed in their contract and the yard accepted them all! IMHO does not say much for their knowledge of contracts.

surveys,
The surveyor does this.

values,
Exclusive access to prices in soldboats.com?
The value is determined by the buyer and seller Correct but most important I have found is the number your personal banker gives you that is the amount a bank will lend against that boat in it's current condition. That is the number you should offer.

BRINGING CLIENTS TO REALITY, I've looked at the boat market.
The brokers are falling down on
the job in this category. Absolutely! Broker's do not want to admit that they way over inflated the price to get you to list with them. (most I meet but not all) Had broker last year refuse to present an offer I wished to submit via my banker's values. Just under 40% of his listing. His contract had just ended so I went to the bank and presented it myself. Banker took me to lunch and called the broker for mtg. When we returned from lunch and meet with the broker the banker informed him that since he didn't present my offer and his contract had expired that he was not due any commission as the bank was accepting my offer which was exactly the same as their valuation said it was worth.

processing, What's this???

clearing titles, Boatyard or govt agency not the broker who just checks which can do myself
Doesn't the title insurance company do this? I don't know how
it works with boats.

insurance questions,
Doesn't the insurance company do this? Perhaps but recommend you do it yourself as called 2 brokers in Fort Lauderdale last week and they both got it wrong on the phone when asked an insurance ? that I wondered about. How much could I save if I had no gasoline on board for the tender and air dive compressor? Their answer was "None" Insurance company's answer $1022 per month. 20% savings and will look a lot nicer not having 40 5 gal jugs lining the railings for 6 months away from civilization in the Pacific. Have purchased William's Dieseljet tender instead as the lady from our insurance company recommended.
financing questions,
Doesn't the mortgage broker do this? Lot of boats are cash deals due to age or condition.

how to resolve issues (often times the broker is the only one not acting on emotions) disagree he sometimes is the irrational one in my experience. 6 purchases, 1 sale last 20 months without any broker. Only first purchase and the 1 sale in USA. Rest in EU. New build also no broker. Am using one of the brokers to purchase our chase boat upon our return to the states as was his listing so is only fair but the amount saved by no broker in the new purchase far exceeds the cost of the 2nd boat. Kinda like getting it "free" for not using a broker and doing some of the work myself.

------------------

So when you get right down to it, the broker is showing the boat, coordinating the ballet, and keeping things on track for 10% of the value of the contract. Granted, it's nice to have someone with experience handling all this, but 10% of the boat value seems a bit pricey for this service in cases where the buyer and seller find each other on their own.
Agree and many semi-custom yards we have visited in last year and at the major int'l boat shows will flat out tell you that they can sell to you direct cheaper as they do not have to pay a broker's comm.

Have nothing against some brokers but most are what we consider unnecessary overhead that can be avoided with a little due diligence yourself. Like any industry most avg to bad but a few are good. Am not lumping them all into 1 category.

Johnny

[rgscpat]

It seems that the original poster could really use someone knowledgeable to give an intelligent second opinion about the boat and maybe help the OP learn to
"pre-survey" the boat before spending money on the survey and haul-out.

Without knowing the condition of the boat accurately, how does the potential buyer know how good a value this boat is for her or his needs? Perhaps the buyer has been looking at large numbers of similar boats and has been tracking the market closely, but we don't know that.

It would be really nice, if the seller had maintained an on-line or photo/video album of the salvage and repair process with receipts for all materials, and a good description of the repair methods and workmanship, so that a buyer could have some assurance of the quality of the re-build. That would help reduce the fear factor associated with a salvage boat.