Critique My Plan

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Bean counting and cruising does not go together too well.

Odd bean counting is exactly what moved us from some day in our 60's we could buy a boat and head out to doing it age 37.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by David Ess

The plan is fine. But if you really like the lifestyle, youll probably end up getting a bigger boat.

A 40ft catamaran is pretty big and with teenagers departing it will feel bigger as time goes forward.

Not saying they might not go larger but it's very likely, it will be big enough.

My suggestion is to be prepared to be flexible. Your current idea of what cruising is may be wildly different from the reality or what the family finds enjoyable. If someone is not happy, consider doing something else. You find a lot of people who get hung up on what they said they were going to do and slog thru even though it's not fun...until something or someone gives way.

Also, wait to do a refit until you've been onboard a few months. We did and many of the upgrades just kind of slipped off our radar as we found they weren't needed. At the same time, others popped up that we wanted.

We made a similar move in 2007 at 37yrs old on a 34ft cat with a much smaller budget. Be smart with your money and it's very much viable.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

I question if the OP is telling the truth or not. No mention of actually how the income is "earned"

Anyone with this level of "income" should be questioned. It is a choice to cause pollution, and the 1% choose to cause more pollution than the remaining 99%. It is a selfish choice to be in the group that is ultimately spoiling the world for now and forever in a vastly disproportionate way. The mention of "real estate" is an indication of low morals. Since it is as wrong to own land as it is wrong to own the sea, the air, or the sky. So, my answer is to get a boat for $10,000 or less and use that since it is more than sufficient and immediately stop "working" (ie: stealing) so that other people can also achieve their dreams. When wealth is concentrated into the hands of a few, it impoverishes everyone else.

For some reasons these types of posts....Makes me want to go dump a gallon of gasoline on some old truck fires and light em'up.

[more]

Originally Posted by Beneath

ps.
[LIST] My Salary: $450k/year.
[LIST]I am ASA101, 103, 104, 114 Certified. The Mrs is 101 & 103 as of this year.



The Plan:

• Within the next 1-2 years buy a Used catamaran ($450k ish), but not one too old - maybe 1-4yrs old. Currently looking at the 40ft size range (Lagoon, FP, Leopard, Nautitech, Seawind etc.). The cash for the 25% payment would be covered before this years end and will not be removed from existing investment funds.

[LIST] Refit; (let's say..$60k). Will be mostly focused on self-sustainability, if it already does not presently have the equipment. Water maker, solar(1300w+), lithium(900ah+), wifi/4g extender, washing machine, folding props, netted lifelines, as well as your normal offshore safety components.[LIST] Budgeting wise,.

you are not poor for buying used staff. you must buy new CAT
buy nude CAT for you 40 ft is little to small go 41-42
Astréa 42,lagoon 42 or nautitech 44.

only poor people buying used yacht,house,car. try imagine in head how many sperm flow in bed,deck,kitchen.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by more

only poor people buying used yacht,house,car. try imagine in head how many sperm flow in bed,deck,kitchen.

No Mas! No Mas!

[more]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

No Mas! No Mas!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGqTn9LFM6I

on charter boat minimum you have per cabin 300-1000 kg body fluid by year

[Freeeeedom]

Did you speak to tax advisors? They might have some nice surprises for you. I moved my tax residency within the EU and effectively lowered my income tax rate from 47% to 6%. Although if you are a US citizen you might have less opportunity for saving on taxes. Still, worth discussing it with some experts and spending a few thousand $ on them, considering your income level.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Freeeeedom

Did you speak to tax advisors? They might have some nice surprises for you. I moved my tax residency within the EU and effectively lowered my income tax rate from 47% to 6%. Although if you are a US citizen you might have less opportunity for saving on taxes. Still, worth discussing it with some experts and spending a few thousand $ on them, considering your income level.

Please tell us more.

[Freeeeedom]

I'm not a tax advisor and I'm not comfortable talking about my particular setup, but here are some things I remember from my own research that you might want to Google:
* Portugal and their Non-Habitual Resident program (10 years without income tax for new residents)
* Estonia with their e-residency program and no corporate income tax as long as the money remains invested within the company (and 20% tax rate when you withdraw the money from the company)
* Romania and their 1% corporate revenue tax for microcorporations

* Croatia and their so-called 'Digital Nomad Visa' (no income tax)
* Nomad Capitalist has a large blog about this subject and is very fond of Georgia the country. I'm not affiliated with him and never used his services so cannot vouch for him. I think he is/used to be a US citizen so might be most relevant to most forum members.



If you find this helpful, I would appreciate if you take a look at another thread where I'm asking for advice on how to get started as a liveaboard: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ts-259957.html

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Freeeeedom

Did you speak to tax advisors? They might have some nice surprises for you. I moved my tax residency within the EU and effectively lowered my income tax rate from 47% to 6%. Although if you are a US citizen you might have less opportunity for saving on taxes. Still, worth discussing it with some experts and spending a few thousand $ on them, considering your income level.

Changing states can have a nice tax benefit but 47% to 6% is not realistic by changing states.

If the OP is in a high tax state and moves domicile to a state with no income tax, he might save 10% (federal tax won't change noticeably). There might be a few other minor benefits but nothing close to a 41% drop in tax rate.

A big question is does the OP keep a house in the original state. For example, if he's from California and files paperwork claiming he's moved to Florida, expect California to challenge it if he keeps the California house and can't show evidence of a house or apartment in Florida with utilities and other documentation to support the claim. (Plus the property tax on an expensive California home can be quite a bit, especially if it's not a primary residence)

PS: I'm curious about the EU move as that sounds a little extreme and it seems like everyone would be doing it if it was that easy. I'm sure there is more to the story.

[Freeeeedom]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I'm curious about the EU move as that sounds a little extreme and it seems like everyone would be doing it if it was that easy.

Moving tax residency really is quite easy if you are not particularly attached to your current place of residence. The tricky part is finding an employer/client that is willing to pay you the Western rates while allowing you the working arrangements identical to those of a cheap outsourcing company from India. Once you do that switch you are competing with the workforce of the entire world.



(BTW you can also have no tax residence at all. That is technically legal but makes banks, other financial institutions and governmental agencies extremely suspicious. That was my situation for a year )

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Freeeeedom

Moving tax residency really is quite easy if you are not particularly attached to your current place of residence. The tricky part is finding an employer/client that is willing to pay you the Western rates while allowing you the working arrangements identical to those of a cheap outsourcing company from India. Once you do that switch you are competing with the workforce of the entire world.

(BTW you can also have no tax residence at all. That is technically legal but makes banks, other financial institutions and governmental agencies extremely suspicious. That was my situation for a year )

You missed the point of the question...what countries in the EU are you talking about?

[Freeeeedom]

See my post above your question. (I wrote it before you asked but it only became visible later since it had to go through moderation.)

[cdarbonne1]

Originally Posted by Beneath

Trying to look at the pessimist side (or maybe confirmation? hah) of our plans.

I am able to work remote, and have been doing so for the last 6+ years - it is not a covid employer shifting event. My team is also remote and spread all over the United States, this is also the norm for other teams within my Director's organization. I guess i am trying to say, that the 'work from home' for me - is pretty much as permanent as it can be. My wife is stay at home mom/property manager for our recently growing real estate investments. I have already worked from counties outside of US - month(s) long remote work/vacation with family.

We are 34M & 31F - 2 kids. Before jumping into the numbres, Yes I know we are extremely lucky to be were we are now - especially coming from a family that grew up in poverty and on food stamps.

All figures are in USD $.

• My Salary: $450k/year. My employment is very safe. if anything I might get a promotion in 1-2 years and potentially jump up to 500-750k/year.

• Real Estate Net: $30k/year. This is with all costs already removed, including a conservative maintenance and vacancy fund. We currently net a bit more than this, but using this number to account for potential property management fees.

• Current Investments not counting home nor real estate property equity is roughly $1.5 Million in stock funds.

• We currently save 14k/month from my salary, mostly into investments.

• We do not touch our real estate income. We use it to roll it into another real estate purchase every 1-3 years. In this plan's case, we will not seek additional real estate and bank this instead as the 1st line of yearly maintenance capital.

• My plan is to retire (FIRE) before 50, realistically the only reason for delaying it so long is a mix feeling about retiring with the kids still going through in person high school - what the hell do we do? cant travel, might as well make the cruise kitty obese. We want them to have the option to go onsite for high school; to experience the social and friendship bonding aspects. This fact will come up later on in the plan.

• Cost of living: We are in a Low/Middle cost of living area. We are not located around main cities nor in high taxing states.

• We have already fully funded both kids 529/College savings.

Experience:

• I am ASA101, 103, 104, 114 Certified. The Mrs is 101 & 103 as of this year.

• As a family, we have already done two catamaran bareboots - not inclusive of any classes. The Mrs will NOT, like absolutely NOT do monohulls...

• During one of the bareboot week long trips, the oldest kid had to do schooling and homeowrk - So a good trial run of it all.

• Wife is onboard with the plan, which is usually the hardest part; am i right?! .

• I am generally very handy. Engineering background with a diy/fixing mindset. Have had a year of electrical, a year of telecommunications and tend to most minor/handy man task in our home or real estate investments. I do woodworking as a hobby/home improvement passion. I am a study alcoholic and have absorbed a few recommended sailboat maintenance books by now.

• The Mrs is by all merits not a diva nor posh. She grew up in a 3rd world country tending to her families farm, cattle and deep in **** (literally) - in a tom boyish capacity, she is not afraid to get dirty.

The Plan:

• Within the next 1-2 years buy a Used catamaran ($450k ish), but not one too old - maybe 1-4yrs old. Currently looking at the 40ft size range (Lagoon, FP, Leopard, Nautitech, Seawind etc.). The cash for the 25% payment would be covered before this years end and will not be removed from existing investment funds.

• Refit; (let's say..$60k). Will be mostly focused on self-sustainability, if it already does not presently have the equipment. Water maker, solar(1300w+), lithium(900ah+), wifi/4g extender, washing machine, folding props, netted lifelines, as well as your normal offshore safety components.

• We would plan for a week+ captain to come aboard our own vessel and go through docking endorsements and insurance sign off.

• Spend 6 months on the boat (Nov-May) in the Caribbean. First year will be mostly FL/Bahamas while we potentially fine tune the vessel to our liking and gain more experience. The second season will be heading down to Turks as well as Dominican Republic for example.

• We will be moving slow and not be working against a specific schedule. Partly because I will still plan on working my normal 40hrs throughout the week. Yes, this would mean that our travel areas Mon-Fri will be planned around signal areas. I would use weekend/vacation days off for the not so frequent multi-day passages here and there.

• The other 6 months (June-Oct), we will plan for the boat to be hauled out and stored in the dry. We will spend this half of the year in our home state within USA. Enjoying the summer time and spending some extended family time. This does mean that we will be floating both expenses (boat loan, mortgage) year round - but the numbers seem to make it possible.

• We will aim to live this lifestyle for 4-6 years until the oldest child enters high school. At which point we will re-evaluate virtual schooling vs on-site High schooling; but for now, lets assume we head back on land and put the boat for sale.

• During these years of floating both a catamaran and a house, our monthly savings will drop from 15k/month to 7k/month to conservatively account for floating both 'homes' year round.

• Budgeting wise, this also includes about 15% of hull value in yearly maintenance, $800-1000 in misc marina fees a month, as well as elevated groceries, internet plans and entertainment funds. While we plan to anchor most of the time, we have included this marina fee into our plans so as to not make the decision a point of stress if the need arises. The monthly marina fee also goes year round to cover while the boat is in the hard.

• No..we are not going to be YouTubers Lol. No offense to anybody whom does it of course - as it can be a great financial component.

Looking at just the numbers, this seems to make sense to me. Our savings will slow down for a few years. But if we return to land in 6 yrs after selling the boat, we can pick it right back up on full steam. Reggardless, we will still be in a financial position to retire by:

• Age 40-42: If we decide to go 100% cruising family by then and sell the primary residence.

• Age 45: 50% land/50% cruising and we decide to not go to an in person high school. Additional savings years to pay off mortgage/float additional spending capital.

• Age 50: Living on Land & girls graduated from traditional highschool and we transition to just couple cruisers.

Some Risks:

• After the first year, we hate it. Sell boat, loose out on $xx,0000 in transaction fees.

• Even after considering my employment secure, lets say I loose my job. My specific skillsets and domain is about the hottest and on demand sector, should not be hard to conservatively obtain another 250+ year job. Might have to sell boat, and shift back to land until the numbers @ 42/45/50 make sense for us to retire and pick it back up. This is only if the company is not remote friendly.

Not asking from a place of hostility - but genuinely speaking, this is my family so i want to make sure i am not blind to any additional risk or recommendation from the members of this board.

Would you pull the trigger on this plan given the personal and financial situation at hand? or how would you alter it? What am I being blind to?

Apologies for the long wall of text, but as you can tell we have been pondering this for awhile and are extremely excited about the idea of it.

just came across your post.. great plan man.. hope you did it! you did the math, it all checks out in my eyes.. im looking at doing it with alot less and a big Hope it works out.. think of it this way.. whats the worse that can happen, (aside from illness or death) you try it have one hell of an adventure, maybe its not what you thought it would be, or just doesn't work out for you work wise or whatever.. you sell the boat, move back.. still working from wherever! DO it! if i may ask, what job/career are you in?

[pjShap]

I also just saw your post. You've clearly got most of the planning accomplished and evaluated. I would only add two cautions. The biggest one is that when I'm sailing, I don't WANT to be working 40 hours/week. Realistically, if you're working 5 days/week, especially if it has to be normal business hours, you could be looking at sailing only on the other two days. That's still not bad, but it's not what you're describing.

The first summer I took off on my boat, I thought I would work half time or so from the boat. The first time I took out my laptop and started working, I quit and gave up after a couple of hours. I did not go to all the trouble to prepare my boat and plan a summer in beautiful, moderately isolated surroundings to WASTE my time working. After that, I only worked when it was really necessary- a client had time-sensitive needs.

The second concern is related to the first. If you want to be in beautiful, fairly isolated places, you may not have adequate, if any, Internet service. That can be remedied with currently very expensive and power-hungry satellite systems. When/if Elon Musk's StarLink supports a mobile antenna, that could change drastically. Right now, Starlink only works in the small geographic area to which you initially register the device.

Other than that, your plan sounds like a great use of the money you've worked for. Maybe test the waters with a 1-month charter to make sure the whole family is comfortable with the reality. It's a big change when your whole world is within 40 feet of each other.