Do I need a lawyer?

[Stewie12]

I find it odd that you had a survey before the contract. Ensure that in the contract that the seller rectifies any defects found in the survey. And that the closing date suits you and that the boat is free and clear of lien and debt, including all marina fees etc, to the closing date. The broker should be able to get you a transcript of registry to show that there is no outstanding finance or debt on the boat. Read the contract carefully and use common sense. No need for a lawyers bill and in any case you would need a marine lawyer.

[sinnerman]

I would have a lawyer not only look at the contract but to also verify that the person selling the boat REALLY has the authority to do so (can he legally sign for the documents?)

Also have a lawyer verify that there are no liens against the boat.

The owner may have pending lawsuits against him and the boat sale may be viewed by the courts as as attempt by him to dispose of an "asset" before the lawsuit claims can be levied against him.

My two cents....

cheers

[taxwizz]

Don't forget to have insurance in place before closing.

[Deep Blue Water]

Really interesting thread! If a US citizen purchases a boat in the EU or UK, and the boat leaves within 90 days for another country, does VAT need to be paid?

[sailingchiro]

Sounds like you need to hire GOBOATINGNOW.
Besides getting a good boat, it seems the vat taxes and insurance are the two limiting factors.
If there is a mortgage, make sure insurance is in place and have the cruising grounds approved prior to departure. Getting insurance has been getting harder.

Getting a lawyer may be cheaper than paying a surprise VAT tax.

We have our boat in a corporation.

[Tellie]

As my Dad always said when I asked if I needed a lawyer for such things "Where did you get your law degree from?" I don't buy anything of such value without one. Cheap dang insurance. Another thing I learned long ago that somewhat applies, a person who acts like their own lawyer has a fool for a client.

[salfarina]

Congratulations and best of luck. Though not familiar enough with purchasing a boat in your price range, I would nonetheless begin my inquiries with a call to Lloyd’s. Perhaps they could offer advice, recommendations, referrals and certainly insurance considerations.

[Jack Lahr]

Find a good lawyer and cheerfully pay a reasonable fee. Your investment is too significant to save a smallish fee.

[more]

Originally Posted by Deep Blue Water

Really interesting thread! If a US citizen purchases a boat in the EU or UK, and the boat leaves within 90 days for another country, does VAT need to be paid?

what 90 days, you have a couple of day to max 30 days. you don't pay tax seller (if vat not paid) is obligate for vat. usually seller delivers boat you in the custom dock with an invoice and document boat is cleared from the EU register.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by more

what 90 days, you have a couple of day to max 30 days. you don't pay tax seller (if vat not paid) is obligate for vat. usually seller delivers boat you in the custom dock with an invoice and document boat is cleared from the EU register.

This is not what’s normally done. What’s usually done is you pay vat ( or put the vat into escrow ) and on presenting appropriately stamped proof of export , the seller will refund your vat.

( what’s an EU register by the way , )

The reason it’s typically done is the seller is legally obligated to collect vat .( and remains responsible ) It’s only after he has received proof of export can he refund it. ( only the seller can refund , the tax authorities can’t )

Some countries have a codified “ sail away “ scheme where that process is more formalised.

This is the process where you as the buyer take physical possession of the boat.

If the boat is shipped or transported then the seller can deduct vat at the point of sale as the carrier is responsible for the legal export of the goods.

You can arrange other processes including bonding etc. But it’s quite involved in certain cases.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sinnerman

I would have a lawyer not only look at the contract but to also verify that the person selling the boat REALLY has the authority to do so (can he legally sign for the documents?)



Also have a lawyer verify that there are no liens against the boat.



The owner may have pending lawsuits against him and the boat sale may be viewed by the courts as as attempt by him to dispose of an "asset" before the lawsuit claims can be levied against him.



My two cents....



cheers

There’s no easy way to check if the owner has legal actions pending

If the boat is registered you can check the register. However many countries do not track Liens or mortgages in the register.

While it’s not that unusual to see lawyers involved in general a YBDSA broker is under an obligation to deliver you a yacht with good title and you have recourse via the YBDSA insurance etc.

( many uk brokers used the YBDSA a uk society. But I can’t say what’s happening now post Brexit )

Remember the broker is actually a neutral party brokering a deal between the seller and you.

[Clivevon]

Ok so you are British & about to sign a contract to buy a boat in Europe for a large sum of money getting close to 500,000 Euros. Do you need a lawyer? Short answer? F*** yes!!
Let me ask you - would you buy a house in the UK for that sort of money without a lawyer? I certainly would not - & a house is much easier asset to check title on than a boat.
I bought a boat in Europe years ago without a lawyer BUT that was pre Brexit, it was for a heck of a lot less money, the seller was British, the VAT status was clear AND the BOAT WAS PART 1 REGISTERED. (apologies to our non British friends - it just means the complete chain of ownership & any debts right back to new was clearly & legally documented).
I am almost a complete know nothing about the current state of the law - others here know a lot more - but if it was me I would be wondering about a long list of things including:
How do I know the seller actually owns the boat?
How do I know there are no legal charges (debts) on the boat?
What documents will I get to prove I own the boat when I pay my money?
What exactly are the rules around paying VAT? Will they affect me ?
Given that you can only spend 90 days at a time in EU, with a 90 day gap in between, how will that affect my plans?
There are probably other issues also - & that is before any issues about surveys, sea trials, etc etc.
If you were spending 50,000 euros, I might suggest getting the RYA booklet on buying a second hand boat. For near half a million? Yes you need a lawyer.
Pay someone to sort all these issues for you - then enjoy your sailing..

[ebs001]

This thread highlights the reason to use a buyer’s broker. It costs the buyer nothing and looks after all the questions raised here. If your buying a boat especially from a broker, get your own broker.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Thanks... do you think I need someone to help advise me on what my options are when getting it reflagged? I had heard that the flag of a boat does not affect tax implications. I have also heard it is best to buy it and register it in both our names but I am not sure after that.

Yes, John Xavier Doe AND Jeanne Jolie Smith co-owners.

There are a couple of threads about re-flagging, here. Use the CF Custom Google Search a way down the Search menu.

Ann

[Shanachie]

Hiring an attorney is like reefing. If you have to ask, the answer is yes.


There are so many angles you don't know about. Taxes. Where to flag the boat. How to transfer the money safely. Concerns about the validity of the title.


The cost of an attorney should not be more than a few thousand, whether its euros, pounds or dollars. Why would you risk 500K to save a few thousand?